MULTI21
Formula1
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- wolf359
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Re: Formula1
Give Vettel a good car and he was one of those drivers that could consistently deliver.
I seem to recall, perhaps unkindly, that his 4 title years were characterised by a car that was clearly ahead of the field and a large chunk of his wins were won from pole position, a clean race pole to flag. Maybe he lacked that extra percent of mercurial ability, being able to find the flow and outperform the package when things got tough.
His Ferrari was the best car for much of the 2018 (?) season but the Ferrari Comedy Circus (tm) joined the tour again so they failed to maximise their points haul, and by the summer break the Mercedes team got their act together and it turns out their PU was illegal after all.
Good driver, turned out to be a top bloke. Need more like him in the paddock to be honest.
I seem to recall, perhaps unkindly, that his 4 title years were characterised by a car that was clearly ahead of the field and a large chunk of his wins were won from pole position, a clean race pole to flag. Maybe he lacked that extra percent of mercurial ability, being able to find the flow and outperform the package when things got tough.
His Ferrari was the best car for much of the 2018 (?) season but the Ferrari Comedy Circus (tm) joined the tour again so they failed to maximise their points haul, and by the summer break the Mercedes team got their act together and it turns out their PU was illegal after all.
Good driver, turned out to be a top bloke. Need more like him in the paddock to be honest.
- Johnny Byrne's Boots
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Re: Formula1
^^^^^ a large chunk of his wins were won from pole position, a clean race pole to flag.
I read somewhere that's how his car was set up. It sacrificed the ability to follow another car closely (even more so than the others) and put all its eggs in the 'go as fast as possible in clean air' basket. They relied on getting pole and pulling away, and it also explains some criticism he received at the time of not being able to overtake. It was true, but because of the car not the driver.
I read somewhere that's how his car was set up. It sacrificed the ability to follow another car closely (even more so than the others) and put all its eggs in the 'go as fast as possible in clean air' basket. They relied on getting pole and pulling away, and it also explains some criticism he received at the time of not being able to overtake. It was true, but because of the car not the driver.
- Bend it like Repka
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Re: Formula1
A driver who definitely improved personality with age.
Seemed to become a nicer more likable bloke after leaving Red Bull. Funny that.
Seemed to become a nicer more likable bloke after leaving Red Bull. Funny that.
- Denbighammer
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Re: Formula1
The clash with Webber and the refusal to accept team orders all seem a long time ago.
He was preposterously lucky at times (Brazil that year (13'?) when he spun in front of the pack and got hit by nobody & the Abu Dhabi finale when Alonso got stuck behind Petrov) but he was blindingly quick in the right car. The Vettel/Red Bull/blown diffuser car was as dominant a package as we've seen in modern times.
When his big advantage disappeared, he was never more than a reasonable midfield runner and I think he will be remembered as being quite poor for a champion in close driving situations and at overtaking. He was a guy who as he regressed as a driver but grew as a person.
He was preposterously lucky at times (Brazil that year (13'?) when he spun in front of the pack and got hit by nobody & the Abu Dhabi finale when Alonso got stuck behind Petrov) but he was blindingly quick in the right car. The Vettel/Red Bull/blown diffuser car was as dominant a package as we've seen in modern times.
When his big advantage disappeared, he was never more than a reasonable midfield runner and I think he will be remembered as being quite poor for a champion in close driving situations and at overtaking. He was a guy who as he regressed as a driver but grew as a person.
- sendô
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Re: Formula1
Yes he had a air of a flat track bully about him in that pole to flag Red Bull in the early 2010s, and of course him being both German and racing for Red Bull made him easy to hate, but in recent years he has come across as nothing but a smashing bloke. I think he's a much better driver than people have given him credit for (myself included here). As always in F1 the best drivers get into the best cars for a reason, and it's not purely team orders that saw him win 4 world championships in a row whilst Mark Webber won none.
- alf git
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Re: Formula1
Vettel seems like a thoroughly decent fellow.
That said there have been times when i would happily have taken his pointy finger and inserted it into him.
That said there have been times when i would happily have taken his pointy finger and inserted it into him.
- Ironing Board
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Re: Formula1
Unbeatable in the best car, like Lewis Hamilton. People go on about that Ferrari but he was always driving with less margin than Hamilton so inevitably made more errors. Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel never came close to the greatness of Schumacher.
Re: Formula1
Yeah ‘cos Schumacher always had competitive team mates, equal driver status and terrible cars didn’t he . Always won against the odds did Michael.
Schumacher is one of the greats of this sport, no doubt. But there’s no need to diminish other drivers achievements.
Schumacher is one of the greats of this sport, no doubt. But there’s no need to diminish other drivers achievements.
- Bend it like Repka
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Re: Formula1
World championship fishing there.Ironing Board wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:02 am Unbeatable in the best car, like Lewis Hamilton. People go on about that Ferrari but he was always driving with less margin than Hamilton so inevitably made more errors. Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel never came close to the greatness of Schumacher.
Driving with less margin, what does that mean? The Ferrari was a quicker car, and he and his team blew their chance. He's not even close in comparison to Hamilton.
Schumacher seems to motivate some incredible one eyed airbrushing in some people.
Obviously are great driver, especially in the wet, but not only was a he a cheat, but he also refused to allow any of his team mates to ever get near the alleged "patsy" status of Bottas. It does baffle me how people complain about Hamilton's team mates and then proclaim the greatness of Schumacher.
- westham,eggyandchips
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Re: Formula1
I haven't read the replies to this, but you can't come in here saying stuff like that and not expect the fan club to circle you.Ironing Board wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:02 am Unbeatable in the best car, like Lewis Hamilton. People go on about that Ferrari but he was always driving with less margin than Hamilton so inevitably made more errors. Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel never came close to the greatness of Schumacher.
Personally I think your bang-on.
Re: Formula1
You’d never see Messi playing up front for Burnley, and you’d never see Glenn Murray lead the line for Real Madrid. Funny how the best teams end up with the best drivers, and the best drivers end up in the best teams.
“I haven’t read the replies but …” translates to me as “I am unable to engage in discussion and wish to exist happily in my own private echo chamber”.
Which is good, because I can’t be @rsed to discuss it with you.
“I haven’t read the replies but …” translates to me as “I am unable to engage in discussion and wish to exist happily in my own private echo chamber”.
Which is good, because I can’t be @rsed to discuss it with you.
- Bend it like Repka
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Re: Formula1
For anyone who has witnessed the amounts of spins and errors made by Vettel during his Ferrari years, to then claim parity with Hamilton would require a huge level of sheer bloody mindedness.
- wolf359
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Re: Formula1
Or just hate Hamilton, which seems to be much easier and far more common. Seb has developed into a great guy but he’s the luckiest multiple champion in the sport by a mile.Bend it like Repka wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:31 pm For anyone who has witnessed the amounts of spins and errors made by Vettel during his Ferrari years, to then claim parity with Hamilton would require a huge level of sheer bloody mindedness.
- Ironing Board
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Re: Formula1
Yup. People forget a large part of Schumacher’s brilliance was the way he developed a car and led a team. Even my personal favourite Jim Clark didn’t have that unique mix of being the best driver, an inspiration to the team and the engineers while being able to give the guys building the car perfect feedback on how to make it better.westham,eggyandchips wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:18 am I haven't read the replies to this, but you can't come in here saying stuff like that and not expect the fan club to circle you.
Personally I think your bang-on.
The Mercedes guys actually said Schumacher was the best person they have worked with, which shows just how unique he was.
- Ironing Board
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Re: Formula1
The Ferrari simply wasn’t the all-round package Mercedes was. Seb had to wring the neck out of it and that leads to inevitable mistakes. Add in the blundering Ferrari team and he had no room for error. As soon as Mercedes unlocked their package Lewis had the much easier time of it.Bend it like Repka wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:14 am
Driving with less margin, what does that mean? The Ferrari was a quicker car, and he and his team blew their chance. He's not even close in comparison to Hamilton.
.
I doubt anyone could drive the blown defuser Red Bull like Vettel. After that it became an engine formula and no one could get close to Mercedes. The only way Ferrari did was via cheating.
- Hammer Matty
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Re: Formula1
Vettels a 4 time world champion and no one can ever take that away from him, at the time of his dominance I was 15-19 but a big f1 fan. I disliked red bill and vettel strongly, partially the arrogance and partially the fact I wanted mclaren to win. We all remember the blown diffuse issues (Adrian newey brilliance?) but vettel literally dominated that era. I said at the time and I still believe now, though a superb driver he’s never had the race craft of a champion or the overtaking ability
of the best. Since his red bull says I’ve grown rather fond of him, as someone said no coincidence there. But he’s been a solid driver on the track and one of the most outspoken off it when it comes to political or humanitarian issues and that alone tells me he ain’t a bag egg
Was he a prick cause he was at red bull or did he just grow up and become more likeable? All I know is he is a 4 time
World champion with clearly lots of ability and the grid will be worse off without him next year, on and off the track
of the best. Since his red bull says I’ve grown rather fond of him, as someone said no coincidence there. But he’s been a solid driver on the track and one of the most outspoken off it when it comes to political or humanitarian issues and that alone tells me he ain’t a bag egg
Was he a prick cause he was at red bull or did he just grow up and become more likeable? All I know is he is a 4 time
World champion with clearly lots of ability and the grid will be worse off without him next year, on and off the track
Re: Formula1
Ironing Board wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:26 am Yup. People forget a large part of Schumacher’s brilliance was the way he developed a car and led a team. Even my personal favourite Jim Clark didn’t have that unique mix of being the best driver, an inspiration to the team and the engineers while being able to give the guys building the car perfect feedback on how to make it better.
The Mercedes guys actually said Schumacher was the best person they have worked with, which shows just how unique he was.
I don't disagree. Schumacher is one of the greats of F1. It's not an either/or though. Schumacher can be great / Senna can be great / Max can be great, etc all in different ways.
I happen to think that the sport is different these days, I'm not sure we will ever see another driver engineer.
People selectively choose their arguments in this day and age, e.g. Twitter and Horner saying Max wins cos he's a great driver, Lewis wins cos he's got the fastest car. It ain't that simple, you actually need both, but it's this modern day polarisation of F1 that is distasteful, just points to people taking personal dislike to something.
Also, failing to recognise the credibility of your opponent diminishes your own achievement.
The F1 journo asking leading questions to Max, basically leading Max to describe his Ferrari love in and disrespect his rival from last year is a new low. I can only think that the journo is Italian and Max is aiming for a Ferrari seat.
- wolf359
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Re: Formula1
Can’t be arsed posting link but Max fans at it again at the track apparently burning Lewis/Merc merchandise and the usual racist chanting. Also reports of local security punching an official press photographer (pictures on twitter).
Dutch GP could be a lot of run at this rate.
Dutch GP could be a lot of run at this rate.
- S-H
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