MB wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:10 pm
On the left. I’m assuming those who want Fornals in the team more often want him in addition to Benrahma not instead of. Even Moyes needs someone trying to make something happen! Think it says a lot about Fornals from that we’ve seen so much of Benrahma. Remember Benny has hired a lot of Twitter bots to go after Moyes and still gets picked!
Paqueta isn’t a risk taker in the same sense hence why people want a 10 in front of him in the first place.
So essentially moving him from a role he has (at times) flourished in over the last 3 years to a position he hasn't played consistently (or at all) for 4 - 5 years?
I'd argue Lanzini should be ahead of him the queue for that role... and while it is an unpopular opinion, Soucek too.
I think I'm missing a joke in the red
Fornals in the middle is akin to Antonio back to being a starter in a wide position for me... Emerson expected to deliver in a back 4... or our play revolutionising with Areola in goal ahead of Fabianski. It's all based on hope more than anything tangible.
MB wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:51 am
The reason fans like Fornals is the reason he doesn't regularly get in the team currently; he takes risks.
Same reason Moyes dropped him for Lanzini when he first came back to much teeth grinding and annoyance on here and talk of assists per minute etc etc.
For all the "attacking players take risks" posts which will follow this and accusations of Moyes (and probably me) being too risk averse, getting caught in transition with a slow midfield and defence is suicide in the modern game and too much of what Fornals has tried this season hasn't paid off.
He has looked better in his recent cameos and hopefully will get his radar dialed back in. Clearly having a striker like Ings who can make the right runs will help him as well as every ball won't need to be inch perfect to try and breach a wall of opposition players.
Now whether we *should* have a solid enough base behind him to let him do his thing without restraint is a different question. But we don't and every decision needs that context. See also Benrahma and playing through the middle.
I imagine a spell of having Zouma and Aguerd both available will do wonders for Moyes' risk appetite. That plus (hopefully) some confidence from results is what is needed.
And yes I'm boring.
I'm guessing by "taking risks" you mean looking for the unexpected ball rather than a more obvious one. If so ( agree, but they fact they sometimes don't come off is not the fault of the deliverer of the pass but the l;ack of footballing intelligence from others in failing to see an opening the provider has spotted.
As for Moyes reluctance to take risks by playing Fornals as far as I'm concerned it's a bigger risk every time he sends Cresswell out onto the field. His inadequacies were britally exposed by Lyon and Frankfurt last season and if anything his performances have deteriorated further this season.
He was definitely out of form but hasn’t been given much chance to rectify that whereas others seem to get unlimited chances and I think that makes some fans more annoyed about it
Playing Downes and more recently Soucek in more advanced positions rather than Fornals who offers far more in those areas whilst still working his nuts off is just annoyingly negative to me personally
Kermit wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:58 pm
I'm guessing by "taking risks" you mean looking for the unexpected ball rather than a more obvious one. If so ( agree, but they fact they sometimes don't come off is not the fault of the deliverer of the pass but the l;ack of footballing intelligence from others in failing to see an opening the provider has spotted.
As for Moyes reluctance to take risks by playing Fornals as far as I'm concerned it's a bigger risk every time he sends Cresswell out onto the field. His inadequacies were britally exposed by Lyon and Frankfurt last season and if anything his performances have deteriorated further this season.
I get your point, but if the players he is playing with aren't intelligent enough to get on the end of it and he keeps doing it then that is still his fault IMO.
His passing has just been off and given the types of pass he likes to make that exposes us on the counter.
Cresswell exposes us in other ways and as I put on the Benny thread yesterday, my criticism of one player is not intended to suggest I think they are the only problem.
It is just my read as to why Fornals isn't getting more minutes.
I do think he is more suited with Ings up top and there were flashes when they both came on against Spurs of what could be.
I just don't see Moyes starting him, Paqueta and Benrahma at the same time. Doesn't mean I agree or that he shouldn't be capable of coming up with a system which works for those three.
westlondonhammer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:56 pm
So essentially moving him from a role he has (at times) flourished in over the last 3 years to a position he hasn't played consistently (or at all) for 4 - 5 years?
I'd argue Lanzini should be ahead of him the queue for that role... and while it is an unpopular opinion, Soucek too.
I think I'm missing a joke in the red
Fornals in the middle is akin to Antonio back to being a starter in a wide position for me... Emerson expected to deliver in a back 4... or our play revolutionising with Areola in goal ahead of Fabianski. It's all based on hope more than anything tangible.
The Benny bots was a joke I made a while back as all the accounts which are Moyes out seem to think Benrahma is the best thing since cream slices.
But yes the discussion started with people talking about Fornals as a 10, especially instead of Soucek (if you follow it back to the match thread...)
El brooko79 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:39 pm
Fornals has double the goal contributions playing as an central attacker compared to left midfielder.
1 every 198 mins compared to 396mins.
Not doubting his team contribution when he fills in on the left though.
I've taken a look at his stats and am willing to backtrack a little... I honestly hadn't realised he had played 30 games in an AM position for us in the PL (in some decent performances) and had mistakenly thought some of the games he had played AM, he had actually played LW.
Ok, maybe I was wrong to be so adamant about it.
Earlier in the season he was tried there in a couple of games but him in the role was abandoned after a couple of bad results (Forest and Brighton) and then Paqueta coming in and being played in the role instead of him for a sustained period (not to much more success to be fair).
Could it work now with Paqueta in the role behind? Maybe...
That said... I do think we need a run of games where we show a bit of stability at the back as a bit of foundations and I think we need to get through a game without Paqueta going down holding his shoulder so we don't need everything Soucek brings to the team (which is a lot) to the middle of the park.
Also, to be fair, the recent turn around in results has been built on better foundations with a back 3 and wing backs (so no player in the role being described) and I think that's maybe bought back a bit of confidence which was lacking. The goals against column has significantly dried up since the turn of the year with that change of formation and now there's a little more confidence to be a bit more expansive (ala the Forest game on the weekend).
It might be worth a go in the coming weeks. Maybe even against Man U tomorrow...
MB wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:35 pm
The Benny bots was a joke I made a while back as all the accounts which are Moyes out seem to think Benrahma is the best thing since cream slices.
But yes the discussion started with people talking about Fornals as a 10, especially instead of Soucek (if you follow it back to the match thread...)
D C wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:22 pm
Playing Downes and more recently Soucek in more advanced positions rather than Fornals who offers far more in those areas whilst still working his nuts off is just annoyingly negative to me personally
Especially Downes. Putting him up front instead of Fornals was - I hope we can all agree - a mistake.
I'm not seeing what you lot are seeing in him. So, what is it, you are seeing in him, that I am not ? All I am sering is a vastly underperforming player
Puff Daddy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:30 am
I'm not seeing what you lot are seeing in him. So, what is it, you are seeing in him, that I am not ? All I am sering is a vastly underperforming player
Start of the season most would agree but with Paqueta finding some form and Ings providing movement and the ability to finish (!) Upfront then someone like Fornals who can be bounced off for the former and play a defence splitting pass for the latter starts to become very useful. There have been flashes of his old self in the last few outings
Whether that is on the left with license to roam or centrally in an "8" or "10" role is the bit up for debate... Well unless you are David Moyes and then we know what the answer will be!
If Moyes had half a tactical brain he'd play Fornals centre midfield instead of Soucek more creativity never stops running and trying, stop using him as a protector for our inadequate left backs.
Yes he's possibly been misused a bit... but at the same time I do think he's been a bit overrated by many on account of the fact he puts the effort in and is a bit lovable.
You only have to see what happened up at Old Trafford for a snapshot of what Fornals offers changing quickly when he's in the side to not.
Fornals right flank - 0-1
74th Minute Subbed off for Bowen
77th minute Goal 1-1
90 mins Goal 2-1
90 mins + Injury time Goal 3-1
We lose some of our discipline, hard work, passing ability at both ends of the pitch in a blink of an eye and at a crucial stage in the game still in control, only to throw it away with the wrong kind of Sub.
He's the least of our problems, but like some others he constantly gets targeted and dropped back to the Bench unfairly. And we wonder why there's strong rumours of discontent amongst the Squad with regards to tactics etc...
Burnley Hammer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:23 am
Yes he's possibly been misused a bit... but at the same time I do think he's been a bit overrated by many on account of the fact he puts the effort in and is a bit lovable.
If everyone gave the same level of effort and desire that Fornals gives us, I doubt very much we'd be in a relegation battle.
He's also the only one capable of slotting a forward player in.
Only reason he isn't starting is because Moyes is too worried about the backlash he'll get for leaving Paqueta on the bench.
Kermit wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:58 pm
I'm guessing by "taking risks" you mean looking for the unexpected ball rather than a more obvious one. If so ( agree, but they fact they sometimes don't come off is not the fault of the deliverer of the pass but the l;ack of footballing intelligence from others in failing to see an opening the provider has spotted.
There's some truth in what you say but there's also been times when players have simply tried to execute balls that require a level of skill they can't reach. It's like they get frustrated and push the issue rather than continue to work the ball.
In particular I recall a home game earlier this season - one of many hopeless defeats - we were doing our usual go down the left flank, get little joy and then come back to the left back position and Fornals picked it up... You could see immediately that he was going to switch the ball across the pitch to Bowen. You could also see that Bowen had a man on him and our entire right side was wide open. The ball he delivered was short, easily intercepted and they broke on us and scored.
Rice had tried the same ball a few times in the same game and failed with it, just so predictable.
Love me some Fornals but he has been hopeless this season, did think he was better in the last few games.
Absolutely Hammered! wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:34 am
If everyone gave the same level of effort and desire that Fornals gives us, I doubt very much we'd be in a relegation battle.
He's also the only one capable of slotting a forward player in.
As I said - he puts the effort in. As a creator though, I think he's overrated - he might be the best we have but that's not really saying much at our club. Of course he's going to slot a ball in to a striker in from time to time. Most attacking midfielders do. Ultimately though, despite his energy and workrate, I don't think he scores enough, or shoots enough. I think he creates chances - but no more than the average attacking midfielder. I think he concedes possession too much and needs to learn when to try the low percentage pass and when to hold on to the ball.
King1968 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 8:56 am
If Moyes had half a tactical brain he'd play Fornals centre midfield instead of Soucek more creativity never stops running and trying, stop using him as a protector for our inadequate left backs.
