The Johnson Government 2019-2022

[DaveWHU1964]

If you live by FPTP, you die by FPTP, I think some Tories are waking up to this cold hard reality now.

Yep.

Last night’s results should be the catalyst for the opposition parties to start discussing a progressive alliance….it could put the Tories out of business for a generation or two, and that’s a prize worth campaigning for.

For all sorts of reasons, there should not be a formal pact imho. Nor does there need to be one. What are the Liberals going to do? Vote with the Tories against progressive Labour measures? Are the SNP going to do the same? They'll put Labour firmly back into the Scotland equation if they do that.

That's not to say that the Liberals and SNP shouldn't get what they want - respectively voting reform and a second independence referendum. But those things should happen because they are right. I was on my journey already but this government have speeded my path to believing in voting reform. And Scotland should get to choose again. There is no moral argument to stop a country that didn't want to leave the EU and that never votes to be governed by the Tories from having its chance to be free of being dominated by them.

However, if that proves more chewy than it sounds then a quiet little non-aggression pact in the top 40 or so seats where the 3rd placed party has no chance will do just fine.

Non-aggression might well come about simply because Labour and the Liberals are skint. They don't have the money to fight every seat. It's sensible not to waste resources fighting each other and as a result letting the Tories come through on the rails.

I'm a bit of a purist in this respect and don't like to see stitch-ups but in any case I don't think there even has to be a non-aggression pact. It was clear for the ABT voter in both Wakefield and Tiverton and Honiton which was the way to go. As far as I can see, there was no orchestrated telling them because no one had to tell them. They already knew.

ABC is the way to go

There's always been an element of that amongst non-Tory voters. Next time around, on current trajectory, it'll be more noticeable and impactive than ever.

[Oldun]

I've always voted Labour but would gleefully vote LD tor rid the country of this rotten mob and indeed the twat who 'represents' this constituency

Me too

[DaveWHU1964]

It was lucky 90% of labour voters knew to all vote the right way. You would think with no instruction at least a couple thousand more would stay loyal. How did the lib Dem voters know to vote lib Dem this time when logically labour as the 2nd place party would be the obvious place to put your cross.

So you can't offer any source to say that Labour was "encouraging their voters to vote for another party" as you claimed? The comment in my post above replying to Juncs covers the rest.

I know this looks like a great idea but it feels just as dangerous a path as the one everyone wants to get off under Boris to me.

Sam - I know I've asked before but put me right on this one if my memory isn't good, but I don't recall a single post from you in 2019 saying that UKIP standing down their candidates in seats where the Conservatives could win was a "dangerous path". That was evidently an informal pact in all but name. UKIP thought their aims would benefit from doing this and denying their voters the chance to vote for them. Why the concern now but not then? Particularly as unlike then, this time around, Labour and Liberal voters could vote for their parties' candidates in both of these by-elections.

EDIT: I've just seen that 'Oldun is the 4th or 5th of us on this little forum to say we'd have voted Liberal at T+H too. That's 100% of those who have put their hands up. Even more than the 90% of Labourites who 'deserted' the party yesterday.

[Wilko1304]

I've no ideaif Labour are capable of becoming popular, or if they have a grand plan. But, if they were to try and push forward with some decent policy and a few vote-winning plans, would now be the best time to do it anyway?

Would they not be better off keeping their powder dry, letting the current lot mug themselves off and then push forward when it matters? I don't know the answer to this and I'd imagine there are much cleverer people than me out there making that decision - but if Labour did shoot their load now, chances are they'd have screwed it up by when it matters.

Best to start with Noble and Yarmolenko - and have Rice and Antonio to bring on in November 2023 to blow them away?

I suppose the worry is that this is surely the best time to catch the eye of drifting Tories. And at the moment, Labour cant really please their own stalwarts, let alone new voters or drifting ones.

It would be like not buying a striker in the summer because you think Chelsea will have some turmoil, and it would demoralise them to see us push on with a new marquee name in January whilst they struggled.

In the meantime, Roman and his Russian friends have gone and some slick new unit has come in and won back the lads who had some small level of decency and couldnt support Big Dog. I mean Big Rom, there's no suggestions any of this relates to anyone either living or dead.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Sam - I know I've asked before but put me right on this one if my memory isn't good, but I don't recall a single post from you in 2019 saying that UKIP standing down their candidates in seats where the Conservatives could win was a "dangerous path". That was evidently an informal pact in all but name. UKIP thought their aims would benefit from doing this and denying their voters the chance to vote for them. Why the concern now but not then? Particularly as unlike then, this time around, Labour and Liberal voters could vote for their parties' candidates in both of these by-elections
]

And without checking back I'd guess you were against it.

I've no interest in the Tories and ukip destroying themselves with stupid pacts. Everyone thinks they are totalitarian fascists as it is.

In point of fact the Tory pact was completely the other way round though. Ukip didn't stand in seats the Tories held, they did stand where labour and the lib Dems were incumbent. They split the vote in target seats if anything ( there are articles out there saying they probably cost the Tories seats).

What I don't get is (among other things) how not trying in a seat they came second in does labour any good long term. It's the same let's get in and then figure it out plan that got us into the mess we are in. It's duplicitous to voters. It's the sort of thing done by totalitarian fascists.

In a GE which manifesto would people vote on? I've got no problem at all if they want to be a coalition, an alliance or a pact but to it up front. Look at what happens when the public think a party as mislead then. Doing this sort of thing and doing it behind the scenes will do more damage than all the crap that went on when vaz and Watson were up to their tricks.

[StoneHammer]

Tactical voting for the Lib Dems is going to be tough, especially as Davey today refused to rule out going into coalition with the Tories again.

I mean, what is the point? I live in a mega tory safe seat. It's never going to change due to the demographics so my vote is quite literally worth nothing. As long as FPTP is a thing (and it always will be because it's in the main twos interests for it to be so) then we're looking at tory or red tory in perpetuity.

[Wilko1304]

And without checking back I'd guess you were against it.

I've no interest in the Tories and ukip destroying themselves with stupid pacts. Everyone thinks they are totalitarian fascists as it is.

In point of fact the Tory pact was completely the other way round though. Ukip didn't stand in seats the Tories held, they did stand where labour and the lib Dems were incumbent. They split the vote in target seats if anything ( there are articles out there saying they probably cost the Tories seats).

What I don't get is (among other things) how not trying in a seat they came second in does labour any good long term. It's the same let's get in and then figure it out plan that got us into the mess we are in. It's duplicitous to voters. It's the sort of thing done by totalitarian fascists.

In a GE which manifesto would people vote on? I've got no problem at all if they want to be a coalition, an alliance or a pact but to it up front. Look at what happens when the public think a party as mislead then. Doing this sort of thing and doing it behind the scenes will do more damage than all the crap that went on when vaz and Watson were up to their tricks.

To be fair, people have been voting against parties rather than for parties for a very long time. On the left, the idea of pacts is generally pretty popular, as far as I'm aware (I'm limited to the circles I know).

It's not novel or new, and it wouldn't hurt voters. Hell, if it was known and disliked, people would vote against them. It's quite the opposite of totalitarian, it's genuine politics how people believe it should be: working together for the best.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

It's not novel or new, and it wouldn't hurt voters. Hell, if it was known and disliked, people would vote against them. It's quite the opposite of totalitarian, it's genuine politics how people believe it should be: working together for the best.

I don't care what they do if it's out in the open. Pacts without laying out what people are actually voting for is dangerous imo

[DaveWHU1964]

I don't care what they do if it's out in the open. Pacts without laying out what people are actually voting for is dangerous imo

Again you're inferring that pacts are actually happening. If you have any evidence of that then as I've asked before can you provide links.

As for claiming this is somehow akin to the actions "totalitarian fascists" that just sounds daft. Were Labour voters forced to vote Liberal in Honiton? Did the same happen to Liberal voters in Wakefield? No. They just chose to get off their arses and go into a polling booth and cast their vote as they saw fit. Conservative politicians, their remaining voters, etc will need to get used to that.

As for 'totalitarian fascists' - now voter suppression, neutering the Electoral Commission, illegally proroguing parliament, and all of the other things ...

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/is-the-government ... -democracy

...are the kind of things that I think totalitarian fascists or would-be fascists would admire.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Again you're inferring that pacts are actually happening. If you have any evidence of that then as I've asked before can you provide links.

As for claiming this is somehow akin to the actions "totalitarian fascists" that just sounds daft. Were Labour voters forced to vote Liberal in Honiton? Did the same happen to Liberal voters in Wakefield? No. They just chose to get off their arses and go into a polling booth and cast their vote as they saw fit. Conservative politicians, their remaining voters, etc will need to get used to that.

As for 'totalitarian fascists' - now voter suppression, neutering the Electoral Commission, illegally proroguing parliament, and all of the other things ...

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/is-the-government ... -democracy

...are the kind of things that I think totalitarian fascists or would-be fascists would admire.

I've said if they happen they should be out in the open. But yeah it's pretty likely thousands of people all decide to suddenly vote lib Dem, they have been doing well the last few years after all.

If they are then its the exact same **** but I guess you'd be prepared to ignore it because of those doing it or more importantly the people they are doing it to remove, that's fair enough. Everything the Tories do is further proof of how devious and corrupt they are. The other parties wouldn't stoop to such things so let's not even countenance it. People are asking to be lied to by a different colour rosette.

I've been wrong plenty of times but I strongly suspect this gerrymandering will do more harm than good in the long run if it's done wrong.

[Turns to Stone]

As you’ve said plenty of times though, Sammy - it’s just politics. They’re all at it. In the last 12 months you’ve made it
clear that you don’t think Johnson or this govt are any worse than their predecessors. Isn’t this just another example of politicians being politicians?

Why the concern now?

[EvilC]

I don't care what they do if it's out in the open. Pacts without laying out what people are actually voting for is dangerous imo

You are strangely quiet on many of the ways in which this government is dangerous.

[Monkeybubbles]

I may have this wrong, but it seems like SLWO is suggesting that the by election results are due to some kind of secret and coercive pact, rather than people making personal decisions to give Johnson a poke in the gonads.

Sammy, a mate of mine has a Jamiroquai hat you can borrow if you fancy laying siege to Honiton Town Hall.

[Oldun]

I may have this wrong, but it seems like SLWO is suggesting that the by election results are due to some kind of secret and coercive pact, rather than people making personal decisions to give Johnson a poke in the gonads.

Sammy, a mate of mine has a Jamiroquai hat you can borrow if you fancy laying siege to Honiton Town Hall.

What’s worse is that some people in the Tory party and the Daily Heil are saying the same thing .
It’s just another step towards a dictatorship,people being told who they should and shouldn’t vote for.

[DaveWHU1964]

At the start of your post you said (my highlighting); I've said if they happen they should be out in the open ... which seems to acknowledge it might not be happening. By the end of your post you say (my highlighting): I strongly suspect this gerrymandering ... as if it is definitely happening. So stand by your words - you clearly think it is happening without any evidence whatsoever. As has been commented above the Daily mail is also casting slurs on this - Javis is commanding, as if he has the ****ing right to, the other parties to say if there is a pact or not when he is just chucking this slur out in the hope that some will just accept it as true

You say ... But yeah it's pretty likely thousands of people all decide to suddenly vote lib Dem, they have been doing well the last few years after all.

What's your alternative to the possibility that if the likes of me, OFT , 'Oldun had we been able to vote in Tiverton and would have freely voted Liberal to get the Tories out that thousand of people with similar views about this government and had the vote, voted to boot the Tories out? What other option is there? Do you think that Labour got several thousand of its voters in Tiverton together in a moon-lit graveyard and whispered to them to all vote Liberal but not to tell anyone? Honestly, I just don't get where you are coming from.

If they are then its the exact same **** .... You and your 'ifs' again Sam. So you're completely wrong when you say ... but I guess you'd be prepared to ignore it because of those doing it or more importantly the people they are doing it to remove, that's fair enough .... but I would have hoped you knew me better than that by now or at least had read my reply to Juncs where I was disagreeing with him on forming electoral pacts. So all of this ...

Everything the Tories do is further proof of how devious and corrupt they are. The other parties wouldn't stoop to such things so let's not even countenance it. People are asking to be lied to by a different colour rosette....

... is just straw man stuff.

[daytimedave]

MICK LYNCH FOR PM !

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Do you think that Labour got several thousand of its voters in Tiverton together in a moon-lit graveyard and whispered to them to all vote Liberal but not to tell anyone

The plp were told they were soft pedalling, front benchers were told not to go. Things that set a tone.

fI this had no influence from lib/lab then either they have the most clued up labour voters down there who instinctively knew to switch because the 3rd biggest party was the most likely winner or starmer just lost 90% of his votes.

I'm not trying to convince you of my opinion it's just my opinion. I don't see any feasible way this just happened without some communication between libs and lab even if it's just a non aggression agreement.

[OFT]

fI this had no influence from lib/lab then either they have the most clued up labour voters down there who instinctively knew to switch

To be fair Sammy yer typical Labour voters knew how to vote to 'get brexit done" (stupidly IMO) so I'm sure they could manage tactical voting, if(IF) they can be arsed

[DaveWHU1964]

MICK LYNCH FOR PM !

I love the way he just won’t play along with the media’s games. The Kay Burley picket line stuff was brilliant as is this …

[Macca1973]

I’ve been no fan of Mick Lynch, but for crying out loud, Piers Morgan taking his idiocy to new levels. Lynch actually just went up in my estimation a notch, at least he appears to have a sense of humour.