The Johnson Government 2019-2022

[Tenbury]

Perhaps judging an individual's merit at 11 years of age isn't exactly ideal..

[EvilC]

She is t and it isn't but it did work as a system in lots of cases. It was meritocratic and people thought that was unfair.

Well that's not at all what I was getting at but also sticking bright kids in comprehensives hasn't always done them any favours.

People were calling for a meritocracy, I was pointing out that people don't actually always like meritocracy when they have it.

The grammar system has been shown not to be meritocratic, irrespective of what it did for your mother.

[delbert]

Anyone can make it from any background. That’s indisputable. It’s the chances of it happening that are markedly different from one group of people to another. That’s the problem.

Unless people think that those on free school meals are less intelligent than others then this is not so much about luck as about opportunity or lack of it. Opportunity can be bought, is not affordable to all and is consequently the inequalities that flow from that are baked in. This out today …

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2 ... eport-says

Bridget Phillipson, the shadow education secretary, said: “Some 12 years of Conservative governments have utterly failed to tackle inequalities across the education system, which are letting down our children and holding back young people’s opportunities and life chances.

Here's Bridget conveniently overlooking the fact that the report covers 20 years, so it implicates her bunch as well.......

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

The grammar system has been shown not to be meritocratic, irrespective of what it did for your mother.

Choosing based on academic ability isn't meritocratic?

[EvilC]

Choosing based on academic ability isn't meritocratic?

You aren’t choosing entirely based on academic ability. You are choosing based partly on how able and willing the parents are to send their kid to a tutor for three years. That’s the point.

It can also be considered meritocratic to send them to school with everyone else and see who gets the best grades. Obviously that won’t stop middle class twats banging on about grammar schools though.

[MB]

The grammar system has been shown not to be meritocratic, irrespective of what it did for your mother.

My sister taught in an excellent grammar school, but still hates the concept with a vengeance for the reasons you've set out. I've never met anyone in education in favour of them.

[hammers92]

I went to grammar school and the sense of entitlement is unreal. When I said in a careers lesson I wanted to go to college the teacher got stroppy and said “you don’t come to our school to go to college.”

And ironically, it was the wrong decision to go to university.

I was pretty clever at 10 years old, but that’s thanks to my Mum who used to read with me, do spelling work and sit with me ensuring I was understanding my homework.

I think the point against grammar schools is it penalises those who don’t have those things. The kids with ability that don’t get a fair crack of the whip at home. And asking a 10 year old to do an exam with so much riding on it? Not for me I’m afraid.

[DaveWHU1964]

We don’t graft enough. We have a problem with our ‘skill’ and ‘application’. Londoners are better when it comes to productivity. Sammy and co don’t compare well to Londoners. Personally, I didn’t notice it but apparently when I lived in London I was more productive than the day after I moved out …

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... more-graft

[smuts]

72 hour working week on the way everyone.

[DaveWHU1964]

Not for Johnson.

Anyway, 86% of all voters approve of Labour’s energy price cap. A whopping 85% of current Conservative voters approve of it too. Has an opposition policy ever been so well received by their opponents’ voters? Even more amazingly imho, two thirds of those Tory voters think the energy companies should be temporarily privatised.

The pressure ratchets up even as Sunak and Truss form the vanguard of that 15% who disagree with Labour’s plan. Whoever gets the job will crumble on this.

[Denbighammer]

Everyone approves of the government paying their heating bill? Shocked at that news. What if prices are still high in five years time? Where does the £30bn x 5 come from to pay for that?

[Plashet Grove Pete]

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[Plashet Grove Pete]

Are these people unhappy or bitter about universities too? Aren't they based on merit as well? Would you ban them as well?

[EvilC]

Are these people unhappy or bitter about universities too? Aren't they based on merit as well? Would you ban them as well?

I don't know and no I wouldn't.

[Plashet Grove Pete]

I don't know and no I wouldn't.

So some systems based on meritocracy are OK then?

Fair enough. I'll leave you to ponder.

[EvilC]

So some systems based on meritocracy are OK then?

Fair enough. I'll leave you to ponder.

When your meritocracy is shown to be to the benefit of some and the detriment of others, you probably need to think about changing it. Which is what most of the country did.

[Hummer_I_mean_Hammer]

I went to grammar school and the sense of entitlement is unreal. When I said in a careers lesson I wanted to go to college the teacher got stroppy and said “you don’t come to our school to go to college.”

And ironically, it was the wrong decision to go to university.

I was pretty clever at 10 years old, but that’s thanks to my Mum who used to read with me, do spelling work and sit with me ensuring I was understanding my homework.

I think the point against grammar schools is it penalises those who don’t have those things. The kids with ability that don’t get a fair crack of the whip at home. And asking a 10 year old to do an exam with so much riding on it? Not for me I’m afraid.

whether it is a 'normal' state school or a grammar school, surely this is always going to be the case?

i just compare what my kids get from working with my wife for their homework/prepping for exams, against the total lack i had when i was at school - and this is not a dig at my parents, they simply couldn't help as English wasn't their first language.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

You aren’t choosing entirely based on academic ability. You are choosing based partly on how able and willing the parents are to send their kid to a tutor for three years. That’s the point.

It can also be considered meritocratic to send them to school with everyone else and see who gets the best grades. Obviously that won’t stop middle class twats banging on about grammar schools though.

It's the point now because the system has become a kind of private education for those that can't afford places like Eton. If every kid took the 11 plus the tutoring aspect would dilute.

You could do that. Ban private tutoring, sports academies, music tuition, etc. No special treatment or training for anyone promising in any field just let them find their way naturally among the herd. Obviously no one could have the advantage of a better teacher so we could save a fortune and just give kids the text books to read themselves.

[delbert]

Perhaps judging an individual's merit at 11 years of age isn't exactly ideal..

I agree*. With some flexibility Grammar schools could be an extension of the streaming schools already operate internally, depending on annual assessment pupils could be promoted, stay put or relegated accordingly.

* Saying that, anything is better than selection due to what flavour sky pixie the pupils parents dribble over when it comes to Faith schools, compared to Grammar schools they really are an abomination......

[Hummer_I_mean_Hammer]

................ so we could save a fortune and just give kids the text books to read themselves.

Without any prior teaching, .... how would they learn how to read... ?