The Johnson Government 2019-2022

KUMB's 24-hour rolling news channel. The Forum in which to discuss non sport-related news and current affairs, including politics.

Moderators: Gnome, last.caress, Wilko1304, Rio, bristolhammerfc, the pink palermo, chalks

Post Reply
User avatar
EvilC
Posts: 18221
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:54 pm
Location: In the street as the cold wind blows, in the ghetto...
Has liked: 2628 likes
Total likes: 1178 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by EvilC »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:50 am It's the point now because the system has become a kind of private education for those that can't afford places like Eton. If every kid took the 11 plus the tutoring aspect would dilute.

You could do that. Ban private tutoring, sports academies, music tuition, etc. No special treatment or training for anyone promising in any field just let them find their way naturally among the herd. Obviously no one could have the advantage of a better teacher so we could save a fortune and just give kids the text books to read themselves.
I don't think it would. Most of those that don't take it are those unlikely to pass.

You want to push on with a system proven to be to the detriment of those that struggle. It exacerbates all of the inequalities. Which is the point.
User avatar
OFT
Posts: 21543
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:59 pm
Location: Sleepin’ in a bayou on a old rotten cot
Has liked: 2995 likes
Total likes: 1758 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by OFT »

A personal tale of no real importance but seeing as the grammar schools got a mention:

I went to a Grammar school,1964. After the first year we were graded into three classes although there was always the possibility to move up or down based on ability. There was also a chance for lads from secondary modern schools to move to grammar school after the first year although I only remember a couple who did so. I think the difference back then was the employment situation. If you didn't get into the top class by 16 you more or less accepted that another two years at school and then Uni was off. Nobody was that bothered though because there were jobs at all levels for people. Most with good further education attached, most with proper 5 years training, lots of highly skilled jobs with craft apprentiships in industry for those who didn't get to Uni and those that didn't even get to grammar school.and still decent unskilled work for everyone else.
Approx 90 kids started with me. I guess no more than 30 of those went to the upper 6th and they were the ones that tried for Uni . Lads in our group(2) went on to work in offices, banks, as draughtsmen , plumbers electricians etc etc. I saw the grammar school as an opportunity rather than a right. FWIW I didn't take advantage of that opportunity possibly as a result of lack of ability and definitely as a result of not being bothered, but back then it didn't matter as the thought of a life flipping burgers on a zero hours contract wasn't a thing. I did the bare minimum and still ended up working in a lab at a factory with college education thrown in .
In summary, the education system isn't really to blame, there's just not enough proper jobs for all,IMHO
User avatar
Hummer_I_mean_Hammer
Posts: 11576
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:45 pm
Has liked: 941 likes
Total likes: 479 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by Hummer_I_mean_Hammer »

OFT wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:17 am In summary, the education system isn't really to blame, there's just not enough proper jobs for all,IMHO
To a point, but if the education is not being correctly targeted at 'useful' skills, then it is failing people.

I feel that years of convincing kids that once you've earned that hard fought 2:2 in social sciences you'll live the life of Riley is also massively at fault.
User avatar
bonzosbeard
Posts: 13224
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:48 am
Location: somerset
Has liked: 2115 likes
Total likes: 1336 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by bonzosbeard »

Apparently Liz Truss reckons we need to work harder

Put in more graft
User avatar
Hummer_I_mean_Hammer
Posts: 11576
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:45 pm
Has liked: 941 likes
Total likes: 479 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by Hummer_I_mean_Hammer »

bonzosbeard wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:28 am Apparently Liz Truss reckons we need to work harder

Put in more graft
true 'dat.

keeps you warmer as well. :newthumb:
User avatar
OFT
Posts: 21543
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:59 pm
Location: Sleepin’ in a bayou on a old rotten cot
Has liked: 2995 likes
Total likes: 1758 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by OFT »

Hummer_I_mean_Hammer wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:26 am

I feel that years of convincing kids that once you've earned that hard fought 2:2 in social sciences you'll live the life of Riley is also massively at fault.
Yep, can't argue with that. :newthumb:
User avatar
Plashet Grove Pete
Posts: 4514
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:32 pm
Location: I'm riding down Kingsley, figurin' I'll get a drink ....
Has liked: 261 likes
Total likes: 460 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by Plashet Grove Pete »

Hummer_I_mean_Hammer wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:26 am
I feel that years of convincing kids that once you've earned that hard fought 2:2 in social sciences you'll live the life of Riley is also massively at fault.
I agree 100%, but I don't think that can be blamed on the Tories. Surely Labour played a massive role in setting unrealistic targets built around meaningless degrees?
User avatar
OFT
Posts: 21543
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:59 pm
Location: Sleepin’ in a bayou on a old rotten cot
Has liked: 2995 likes
Total likes: 1758 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by OFT »

Plashet Grove Pete wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:45 am I agree 100%, but I don't think that can be blamed on the Tories. Surely Labour played a massive role in setting unrealistic targets built around meaningless degrees?
They did indeed possibly in an attempt to correct the fact that the tories had played a big part in 'ridding the country' of the type of industrial jobs I mention in my previous post.
User avatar
fjthegrey
Posts: 23050
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Ayakin
Has liked: 14 likes
Total likes: 1170 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by fjthegrey »

They still have grammar schools in my area. My wife teaches the age at which kids take the 11+ and the delusion and desperation of parents never ceases to amaze. Parents of children who would clearly be unsuited to the more intensive, fast moving grammar schools teaching, almost harassing teachers for answers about whether their child will pass the test, when it's quite clear they won't, and even if they were somehow coached to do so, would not thrive in the grammar school environment.

Quite apart from anything, grammar school success is largely contrived in my opinion. The most 'successful' grammar school in my area, one which has always had a GCSE pass rate of something like 95%+ won't actually let a student take an exam they think they'll fail. If you're a last minute crammer or a do it on the day kind of kid you don't even get the opportunity to show what you've got. If a teacher projects you to fall short then you're out of luck. You could conceivably leave a grammar school with minimal qualifications and as far as the school was concerned it would have been a success. I have some friends who went to this school and a few of them ended up with fewer than 5 GCSE's, but they each had a 100% pass rate for the exams they took.
User avatar
Hummer_I_mean_Hammer
Posts: 11576
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:45 pm
Has liked: 941 likes
Total likes: 479 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by Hummer_I_mean_Hammer »

Plashet Grove Pete wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:45 am I agree 100%, but I don't think that can be blamed on the Tories. Surely Labour played a massive role in setting unrealistic targets built around meaningless degrees?
Yep, I'd say it started with Blair and his policy to have everyone holding a degree of sorts.

I started to type up something that said that youth training started to diminish back in the 80's, but after googling it thought better of it.. :crylol:
User avatar
OFT
Posts: 21543
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:59 pm
Location: Sleepin’ in a bayou on a old rotten cot
Has liked: 2995 likes
Total likes: 1758 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by OFT »

Hummer_I_mean_Hammer wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:59 am Yep, I'd say it started with Blair and his policy to have everyone holding a degree of sorts.
In an attempt to get people into full time education instead of the unemployment register perhaps. It clearly hasn't worked as an aspiration that's for certain.
Either way, for me it still comes down to the available work opportunities at school leaving age
User avatar
Hummer_I_mean_Hammer
Posts: 11576
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:45 pm
Has liked: 941 likes
Total likes: 479 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by Hummer_I_mean_Hammer »

OFT wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:08 am In an attempt to get people into full time education instead of the unemployment register perhaps. It clearly hasn't worked as an aspiration that's for certain.
Either way, for me it still comes down to the available work opportunities at school leaving age
:newthumb:

There are very few industries with a job for life ethos, which for many is a shame as some people need to grow with/within an organisation.

I think that I must have been in the last year group where we could enter a fully indentured apprenticeship, with some mates I know still working for the same outfit, albeit company name changed several times over.

The good thing is that a collective acknowledgement is there; with companies, schools, etc. working towards more meaningful 'skills for life' type scenario.

So hopefully things will improve for the youngsters. That said, with all the crap going on over the last few years, funding will not be where it should be, and it will revert to being just 'government targets'.
Prob
Posts: 2473
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 9:13 pm
Has liked: 3 likes
Total likes: 192 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by Prob »

User avatar
RichieRiv
Posts: 20858
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:35 pm
Location: https://www.hireahero.org.uk/
Has liked: 307 likes
Total likes: 803 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by RichieRiv »

fjthegrey wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:59 am They still have grammar schools in my area. My wife teaches the age at which kids take the 11+ and the delusion and desperation of parents never ceases to amaze. Parents of children who would clearly be unsuited to the more intensive, fast moving grammar schools teaching, almost harassing teachers for answers about whether their child will pass the test, when it's quite clear they won't, and even if they were somehow coached to do so, would not thrive in the grammar school environment.
I once went to a fundraiser at a local prep school (friends' kids went there, as did our most recent legends kids). I'm all for giving the best start in life and if you can afford it, why wouldn't you? But for many parents (who admitted it) they saw it as a sure-fire way of getting their kid to pass the 11+. Basically paying to get their kid to Grammar School, regardless of the kids aptitude or ability. I ask one parent, what happens if they don't pass. The response was either, well they can go to the local comp or we will have to shell out for Brentwood school. I got the impression from many of these parents that they can throw money at the problem and although there is little doubt that small class sizes help, sometimes you can't turn your kid into something they ain't.
fjthegrey wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:59 amQuite apart from anything, grammar school success is largely contrived in my opinion. The most 'successful' grammar school in my area, one which has always had a GCSE pass rate of something like 95%+ won't actually let a student take an exam they think they'll fail. If you're a last minute crammer or a do it on the day kind of kid you don't even get the opportunity to show what you've got. If a teacher projects you to fall short then you're out of luck. You could conceivably leave a grammar school with minimal qualifications and as far as the school was concerned it would have been a success. I have some friends who went to this school and a few of them ended up with fewer than 5 GCSE's, but they each had a 100% pass rate for the exams they took.
Sister number 2 went to Chelmsford High School for Girls when it was the best school in the country. She did really well with straight A's across both GCSE and A-Level. She could have got on to do anything she wanted, but art and graphic design were her things. The school wanted her to go to St. Martins and study classical art, but she wanted to go the Thurrock to do a foundation year and then to Bournemouth which at the time had one of the best Graphic Design faculties in the country. At that point, the school didn't want to know - this is not path we want our girls to take.

Some years ago they tracked her down and asked whether she would come and talk to the 6th former. She blanked them.
User avatar
delbert
Posts: 27178
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:27 pm
Location: Barking, home of the slowly meandering Prius
Has liked: 699 likes
Total likes: 698 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by delbert »

Prob wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:24 am We need more graduates not less

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/what-w ... -job-myths
They invent their myths then fail to bust them in their own report:
Myth 1: ‘Everyone goes to university nowadays
For some years, there’s been debate about how much of the population should go to university. Just under half (48.5%) of the UK workforce had a degree or equivalent qualification at the end of 2020. But over half do not, and never have.

Myth 2: ‘There aren’t enough graduate jobs’
It’s hard to tell how many graduate jobs there are or how many graduates are in graduate jobs, in part because it depends on how you measure what a graduate job is.

Myth 3: ‘Some degrees have little value to employers
It’s difficult to answer the question of how far degrees matter to employers. However, the statement that they are of little value is inaccurate.

While there are more people underqualified for their roles than overqualified, degrees are important. They represent an attractive entry route to many roles, even if those roles might also have less conventional routes.

Myth 4: ‘All the best graduate jobs are in London’
Most graduates in graduate jobs do not work in London, and never do.

Of 2019 graduates, 22% were working in London six months after graduation. Annual Population Survey data shows that 20% of UK people with degree or equivalent qualifications aged 16–64 lived in London at the end of 2020.

In 2018, 42% of graduating students who went to a local institution stayed locally to work. In the North East and North West, more than half of graduates fell into this category.
I've never heard Myth 1 or 4, and Myth's 2 and 3 they can't answer.

There's a Nigerian prince you should get in touch with......
User avatar
SammyLeeWasOffside
Posts: 21691
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:31 am
Has liked: 290 likes
Total likes: 1022 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Prob wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:24 am We need more graduates not less

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/what-w ... -job-myths
Just graduates or ones with useful degrees?
User avatar
smuts
Posts: 33750
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:28 am
Location: East, East, East London
Has liked: 1499 likes
Total likes: 1440 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by smuts »

bonzosbeard wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:28 am Apparently Liz Truss reckons we need to work harder

Put in more graft
Shame her current boss didn't set more of an example then.
Prob
Posts: 2473
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 9:13 pm
Has liked: 3 likes
Total likes: 192 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by Prob »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:51 pm Just graduates or ones with useful degrees?
What is a useful degree? All degrees are useful, and all degrees are useless.

The Tories love talking about too many kids going to uni doing useless degrees. What they really mean is too many working class kids are getting the chance to be the 1st in their family to gain degrees and go on and go to jobs that are paid well and where traditional jobs for the upper and middle classes. Tories think they shouldn't have access too.

They just don't like working class ambition.
User avatar
SammyLeeWasOffside
Posts: 21691
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:31 am
Has liked: 290 likes
Total likes: 1022 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Prob wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:53 pm What is a useful degree? All degrees are useful, and all degrees are useless.

The Tories love talking about too many kids going to uni doing useless degrees. What they really mean is too many working class kids are getting the chance to be the 1st in their family to gain degrees and go on and go to jobs that are paid well and where traditional jobs for the upper and middle classes. Tories think they shouldn't have access too.

They just don't like working class ambition.
In the link you posted are we short of lawyers and scientists or film and media studies experts and interior designers?

It's fine sending 700,000 kids to uni but if they are getting qualified in things the workplace doesn't need there will still be a shortage while at the same time thousands of people end up stacking shelves with a BSc.

You are just making up the working class drivel tbh.
User avatar
SammyLeeWasOffside
Posts: 21691
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:31 am
Has liked: 290 likes
Total likes: 1022 likes

Re: The Johnson Government 2019-2022

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

From the link
The number of UK workers in professional level employment rose while those in other roles fell during the Covid-19 pandemic, and graduates were also less likely to be furloughed or in non-graduate jobs.
Also from the link
It’s hard to tell how many graduate jobs there are or how many graduates are in graduate jobs, in part because it depends on how you measure what a graduate job is.
So there report at least in part depends on how they choose to measure.
Post Reply