The Johnson Government 2019-2022

[EvilC]

But not by Government or public sector.

To me the government is “owned” by people. People own the debts that is has as well.

However if you do not think that is the case then yes, the government does own things that are taxed (the shareholding in RBS, for example).

[Monkeybubbles]

Is it not a bit weird that the interviewer is grilling the interviewee over breaking covid rules (understand the importance of interviewee is a rulemaker) yet said Interviewer is also guilty of breaking covid rules. Is there any credibility in this political circus ?

You can't draw parallels between the positions of Johnson and Beth Rigby. One wields enormous power and political influence, and the other is the prime minister.

[Rays Rock]

To me the government is “owned” by people. People own the debts that is has as well.

However if you do not think that is the case then yes, the government does own things that are taxed (the shareholding in RBS, for example).

Straying from the point a bit. Which is, where does money come from ? Well where is it generated ? Through trade and Industry (all kinds) using people. The government then demands tax payments from the people in order to distribute it where it sees fit. Whatever way you want to cut it, money has to be generated outside government in order for them to collect it. Which is why if the public sector gets too large, the government ends up taxing itself and not enough fresh money is added to the pool of money it has to use. For example income tax taken from a person working in a biscuit factory gets paid by their company by selling its wares around the globe (fresh tax income). Alternatively income tax taken from a civil servant secretary gets paid from departmental government from tax collected from biscuit factory worker. Fundamentally the civil servant isn’t paying any income tax.

[Danny's Dyer Acting]

And if there was not state the private companies wouldn't have a society within which to operate.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

And if there was not state the private companies wouldn't have a society within which to operate.

Depends what you mean by state. Private companies existed and operated long before the public sector existed.

[Danny's Dyer Acting]

Depends what you mean by state. Private companies existed and operated long before the public sector existed.

True. And the world was a far worse place. Unless you're suggesting we go back 100+ years and you are actually Rees-Mogg?

[EvilC]

Straying from the point a bit. Which is, where does money come from ? Well where is it generated ? Through trade and Industry (all kinds) using people. The government then demands tax payments from the people in order to distribute it where it sees fit. Whatever way you want to cut it, money has to be generated outside government in order for them to collect it. Which is why if the public sector gets too large, the government ends up taxing itself and not enough fresh money is added to the pool of money it has to use. For example income tax taken from a person working in a biscuit factory gets paid by their company by selling its wares around the globe (fresh tax income). Alternatively income tax taken from a civil servant secretary gets paid from departmental government from tax collected from biscuit factory worker. Fundamentally the civil servant isn’t paying any income tax.

No, income tax paid by a person working in a biscuit factory is paid by the person selling their labour to the biscuit making company. The source of the money used to pay that individual is revenues made by selling biscuits.

The civil servant is paying income tax. It is a matter of pure fact. Putting the word "fundamentally" in front of that doesn't change it.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

True. And the world was a far worse place. Unless you're suggesting we go back 100+ years and you are actually Rees-Mogg?

Just saying you don't need one for the other.

[Junco Partner]

Straying from the point a bit. Which is, where does money come from ? Well where is it generated ? Through trade and Industry (all kinds) using people. The government then demands tax payments from the people in order to distribute it where it sees fit. Whatever way you want to cut it, money has to be generated outside government in order for them to collect it. Which is why if the public sector gets too large, the government ends up taxing itself and not enough fresh money is added to the pool of money it has to use. For example income tax taken from a person working in a biscuit factory gets paid by their company by selling its wares around the globe (fresh tax income). Alternatively income tax taken from a civil servant secretary gets paid from departmental government from tax collected from biscuit factory worker. Fundamentally the civil servant isn’t paying any income tax.

Yes, keep going...

You'll be surprised where you end up

[Junco Partner]

Listening to the morning news & almost felt sorry for the no-mark minor ministerial bods obediently waffling through rubbish defending this.

No big hitters doing the media rounds I note

[Danny's Dyer Acting]

Just saying you don't need one for the other.

Of course, on the basis of "can one exist without the other?" you're right.

But it would be **** wouldn't it? Do way with any entity that is run or administered by the state and we're back to workhouses, people dying in the streets and **** being chucked out of the window. Do away with anything private and we're in an equally bad way.

I feel like everyone is making the same point here - nothing exists without everything else.

[Rays Rock]

True. And the world was a far worse place.

That’s absolutely nothing to do with how money is generated.

[Danny's Dyer Acting]

That’s absolutely nothing to do with how money is generated.

Well it is, you just don't agree.

Without the public institutions we have all education, healthcare and security would have to be privately funded. We'd have a poorly educated and sickly population in an unsafe society (both from domestic and foreign threats). We know this is true because all of those things happened in the past.

[Arnold Layne]

We'd have a poorly educated and sickly population in an unsafe society (both from domestic and foreign threats).

Isn’t this where we are now?

[Rays Rock]

No, income tax paid by a person working in a biscuit factory is paid by the person selling their labour to the biscuit making company. The source of the money used to pay that individual is revenues made by selling biscuits.

The civil servant is paying income tax. It is a matter of pure fact. Putting the word "fundamentally" in front of that doesn't change it.

We’re talking about where money is generated. So biscuit employee won’t sell his labour to biscuit factory if the factory isn’t there to provide the labour.
As already pointed out trade existed long before governance. And also as already pointed out, said civil servant is only giving back tax money to the government that had been paid to them by the government out of money collect from outside government. If the public sector gets bigger and bigger, the same money just gets passed around with no real growth generated. I’m not questioning the worth of how tax money is or should be used. I’m just saying without money generated from private economy wealth there is no tax system. Yet we have people who sneer at the principles of profit through private trade and wealth creation.

[Rays Rock]

Well it is, you just don't agree.

Without the public institutions we have all education, healthcare and security would have to be privately funded. We'd have a poorly educated and sickly population in an unsafe society (both from domestic and foreign threats). We know this is true because all of those things happened in the past.

I actually do agree with it, but we’re not questioning it’s worth, we’re questioning how tax money is generated.

[Tenbury]

As already pointed out trade existed long before governance. And also as already pointed out, said civil servant is only giving back tax money to the government that had been paid to them by the government out of money collect from outside government.

This, IMO, is a misunderstanding of the nature of governance. If govt has any definition it's about power. In essence, there is no requirement for a Secondary sector let alone a Tertiary, it's actually 'trade' that establishes the power relationships (between individuals, and internationally).... Anyhow WTF's this got to do with it?

[Rays Rock]

Anyhow WTF's this got to do with it?

Because someone mentioned that the government money was subsidising private industry.

[sendô]

If the public sector gets bigger and bigger, the same money just gets passed around with no real growth generated.

Why do you think we need perpetual growth or else the economy crashes?

[Junco Partner]

Follow your biscuit factory analogy back....way back, as far back as you can go.

You find all money is ultimately the creation of the state.