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EvilC
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by EvilC »

Tenbury wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:49 pm More to the point, it'll artificially inflate future household energy price levels.
Should the cost of gas/oil/whatever fall in the future, this won't be reflected in household bills. Another win for the power companies.
Yes, but you are artificially deflating them now.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Tenbury wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:49 pm More to the point, it'll artificially inflate future household energy price levels.
Should the cost of gas/oil/whatever fall in the future, this won't be reflected in household bills. Another win for the power companies.
No windfall tax in the world will cover the 130bn cost of the loan scheme. The fact windfall has been out there for a while with no huge kicking and screaming probably means they should do it for appearances sake but its a drop in the ocean.

Any help on anything artificially inflates something for a period of time, the furlough help has a long term impact as did the 2007 bailouts.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by smuts »

40 billion a year based on current prices.

So roughly 80 billion plus going direct to the energy companies funded by the taxpayer.

I wonder if this comes with caveats to the energy companies about the level of UK investment expected back?
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

smuts wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:23 pm So roughly 80 billion plus going direct to the energy companies funded by the taxpayer.

I wonder if this comes with caveats to the energy companies about the level of UK investment expected back?
I though I read yesterday it was 100-130bn over 18 months. The windfall tax 8bn

It's going there anyway, this just makes it take longer for people to pay it I guess.

I'm guessing the £400 thing is off that would have effectively held prices at the last cap (I think- £1900 - £400).

I'd do the windfall anyway tbh and use the money for insulation and home solar/storage help. The energy companies will invest anyway because if they don't someone will.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by -DL- »

DaveWHU1964 wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:04 am I take on board all you’ve said and agree with much of it - the only true test we’ve seen in an actual ballot was Wakefield and then in that split second you spoke of we know what choice voters made.
By-elections are generally a protest vote over what the prevailing wind is at the time - I'm not going to root out tons of examples, and I know you won't ask me to - but history is littered with a candidate winning a seat from a current incumbent party mid-term, only to flop back over to the party that originally held it when it comes to a general election.

Me personally, I tend not to read too much in to those by-elections.

A fine example of that was when our previous Conservative MP for Rochester and Strood defected to UKIP. There was a by-election called, he got back in with a huge majority, only for it to be totally wiped out at the next GE and The Conservatives took back the seat.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by sendô »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:21 pm No windfall tax in the world will cover the 130bn cost of the loan scheme.
In PMQs a mere few hours ago Kier Starmer quoted HM Government Treasury estimates that the energy producers will make £170bn excess profit over the next two years.

Do you feel like you're being had? Because I certainly do.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

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The next quarter profit reports will be very interesting.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by MB »

sendô wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:14 pm In PMQs a mere few hours ago Kier Starmer quoted HM Government Treasury estimates that the energy producers will make £170bn excess profit over the next two years.

Do you feel like you're being had? Because I certainly do.
I’m kind of with Truss on this one. If (and I appreciate it is a big if) a good % of that can be turned into investment into the UK then that is probably better than any windfall tax (which they will just use firms like mine to plan around anyway).

Jobs are worth more than money in the government coffers.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by EvilC »

sendô wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:14 pm In PMQs a mere few hours ago Kier Starmer quoted HM Government Treasury estimates that the energy producers will make £170bn excess profit over the next two years.

Do you feel like you're being had? Because I certainly do.
I’d love to see the source/details of that number, because if it contains Shell and BP’s global profits because they happened to be headquartered here then it is pretty shameful that it is being used.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by Junco Partner »

They haven't in the past, they arn't doing it now (Energy Companies investing just 5% of profits in renewables) and there is no evidence to suggest they'll invest in renewables in the future. They are making mind-boggling, record breaking profits from extracting fossil fuels so any tinker-bellish faith in their essential goodness is I fear misplaced.

The EU have the balls to do a windfall attempt, Starmer's plans were flawed but at least he is clear-eyed over where the problem lies.

Even a small (relative to their gargantuan profits) windfall could kick start a large-scale and rapid insulation programme, which is probably the single best thing we could do quickly to reduce demand, keep ourselves warm, train & employ thousands and help us fight back the climate crisis. It's a win-win-win out of a very bad situation.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by bubbles1966 »

There is a 25% energy profits tax until 2025.

Shell make the vast majority of their money outside the UK , have already signed up to £25bn investment in the UK in the next decade and have just moved HQs from the Netherlands.

Doesn't seem like a particularly sensible target.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by Junco Partner »

£25bn...over 10 years...wow, that's 6 months profit this year.

With all their activity outside of the UK it makes you wonder the wisdom of licensing them to plunder our resources so freely.

Norway has a permanent windfall tax, worth 56% on top of their corporation tax, means they get £100 from barrels of oil in the North Sea, we collect just £8. Their $1.3 trillion war chest could've come in handy for us right now.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by the pink palermo »

Rolling out a huge Nationwide network of charging points for EV's won't be cheap, nor will building non fossil fuel power stations to generate it, nor will the cabling cost ffrom generation point to consumption be either.

I could easily shuffle through £150bn setting all that up.

A fair price to have access to the entire UK car energy market for the next 30 years or so.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by Junco Partner »

Throw in a nationwide network of cycle lanes and it gets my vote :newthumb:
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by bubbles1966 »

Junco Partner wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:36 pm £25bn...over 10 years...wow, that's 6 months profit this year.

With all their activity outside of the UK it makes you wonder the wisdom of licensing them to plunder our resources so freely.

Norway has a permanent windfall tax, worth 56% on top of their corporation tax, means they get £100 from barrels of oil in the North Sea, we collect just £8. Their $1.3 trillion war chest could've come in handy for us right now.
A mere £30bn a year for a country like ours since 1990?

We were giving that amount of spare change in aid and EU contributions for years.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by Junco Partner »

You're going to lose your **** when you find out how much Johnson's wasted on PPE we're still burning today, track & trace that done neither, wasteful projects, crony contracts and duff deals...

Two private jets flew to Balmoral yesterday, 1 each.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Junco Partner wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:36 pm £25bn...over 10 years...wow, that's 6 months profit this year.

Norway has a permanent windfall tax, worth 56% on top of their corporation tax, means they get £100 from barrels of oil in the North Sea, we collect just £8. Their $1.3 trillion war chest could've come in handy for us right now.
If they make 7.5bn the next 6 months and we take the lot, it's £350 per household.

It would but imagine the outcry over the last 40 years and it built up while the NHS, schools, roads, public sector pay, police stations, libraries, welfare and pensions were all, as the phrase goes, massively underfunded. We would have dipped in time and again most likely.

We could of course take a windfall and save it but it wouldn't be easy to start a future trillion dollar fund with people wanting charging networks and cycle lanes.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by bubbles1966 »

Junco Partner wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:11 pm You're going to lose your **** when you find out how much Johnson's wasted on PPE we're still burning today, track & trace that done neither, wasteful projects, crony contracts and duff deals..
Bean counting now is the luxury of those who weren't actually dealing with it at the time.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by Junco Partner »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:32 pm If they make 7.5bn the next 6 months and we take the lot, it's £350 per household.

It would but imagine the outcry over the last 40 years and it built up while the NHS, schools, roads, public sector pay, police stations, libraries, welfare and pensions were all, as the phrase goes, massively underfunded. We would have dipped in time and again most likely.

We could of course take a windfall and save it but it wouldn't be easy to start a future trillion dollar fund with people wanting charging networks and cycle lanes.
Just one of them made £12bn in only 3 months this year.

I'd rather not load each of those households with locked in high energy costs for 20 years rather than even scratch the extractors mammoth profits made from exploiting war. Churchill wouldn't have, I doubt Thatcher would have either.

The EU are on the job, a windfall tax and decoupling expensive gas generation from cheap renewable generation. I'm baffled at how our lot are so blinded by out-dated ideology.....unless of course there is another reason :chin:

Follow the (donation) money as they say.
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Re: Next Labour Leader

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Junco Partner wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:57 pm Just one of them made £12bn in only 3 months this year.

I'd rather not load each of those households with locked in high energy costs for 20 years rather than even scratch the extractors mammoth profits made from exploiting war. Churchill wouldn't have, I doubt Thatcher would have either.

The EU are on the job, a windfall tax and decoupling expensive gas generation from cheap renewable generation. I'm baffled at how our lot are so blinded by out-dated ideology.....unless of course there is another reason :chin:

Follow the (donation) money as they say.
Presumably you mean shell 5.5bn of that was from the sale of an oilfield. Also how much would actually fall into a windfall tax? Most of their money is made abroad. North sea generated a small fraction of that sort of money - shell are the 3rd or 4th biggest producer in the North sea and the number one made 80m in the last six months.

The ideologues were on the decoupling path long before the EU got round to it.
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