My goodness you missed out Livingstone, still the one bright part was that they prepared mayors for the top job,bubbles1966 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:51 am The last time they did 'electoral reform' they saddled the nation with the nonsense of devolved parliaments and duds and retreads like Khan.
The Labour Party Thread
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Re: Next Labour Leader
- Loftyhammer
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- Johnny Byrne's Boots
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Re: Next Labour Leader
If there are concerns about supremacy of the second chamber because it would be elected, then appoint a small number of members at random from the electoral register. That way it couldn't claim supremacy over a fully elected chamber.
- SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: Next Labour Leader
The principle of abolishing hereditary peers was a good one. 25 years on how's it gone?
All that will happen is parties will stick the cronies into safe lords seats and call it democracy.
- Junco Partner
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Re: Next Labour Leader
Starmer is dead right about banning politicians from appointing Lords, it has to go
Johnson's crass and obvious rewarding mega-rich donors with peerages took this questionable process to whole new levels of corruption. That Truss gets to reward her clique of SPADs and donors for getting her 20 minutes as PM is equally scandalous.
Each new Lord costs us a small fortune....plus allowances and tax-free expenses every year for life, regardless of what they do. We can't go around adding more and more every year without any accountability. It's already the largest unelected legislative chamber in the world bar China, it needs drastically streamlined.
As for abolishing it, that's totally justified and a been longstanding Labour policy, the issue is mentioning it in isolation. The need for electoral reform is much, much more pressing if you're concerned about our democracy. Yet even doing that without having a long hard review of all our constitutional institutions, their role, powers, responsibilities and relationships is risky. Doing one bit of reform however well intentioned and needed can be damaging if you don't align it with reforming the other bits as well.
The need to write it all down in a rule-book stating which elected house has supremacy over which aspects of governance and legislation is one thing that must obviously follow making the 2nd chamber elected....may as well go the whole way and get our constitution written down too. Another dangerous chancer like Johnson will inevitably be along to distort and exploit its unwritten form unless we do.
Johnson's crass and obvious rewarding mega-rich donors with peerages took this questionable process to whole new levels of corruption. That Truss gets to reward her clique of SPADs and donors for getting her 20 minutes as PM is equally scandalous.
Each new Lord costs us a small fortune....plus allowances and tax-free expenses every year for life, regardless of what they do. We can't go around adding more and more every year without any accountability. It's already the largest unelected legislative chamber in the world bar China, it needs drastically streamlined.
As for abolishing it, that's totally justified and a been longstanding Labour policy, the issue is mentioning it in isolation. The need for electoral reform is much, much more pressing if you're concerned about our democracy. Yet even doing that without having a long hard review of all our constitutional institutions, their role, powers, responsibilities and relationships is risky. Doing one bit of reform however well intentioned and needed can be damaging if you don't align it with reforming the other bits as well.
The need to write it all down in a rule-book stating which elected house has supremacy over which aspects of governance and legislation is one thing that must obviously follow making the 2nd chamber elected....may as well go the whole way and get our constitution written down too. Another dangerous chancer like Johnson will inevitably be along to distort and exploit its unwritten form unless we do.
- Tenbury
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Re: Next Labour Leader
'Govt is Violence' huh, Bubbles??..... I like it!bubbles1966 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:14 am That's flawed thinking.
You're just debating layers of government, rather than size.
But I digress,... What are the latest polls looking like?
- Johnny Byrne's Boots
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Re: Next Labour Leader
I don't want a wrtten constitution, the way we sort of have an unwrtten one now is fine. I look at a supposed democracy across the Atlantic with a rigid written constitution, and I really don't want us to be like that.
- bubbles1966
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Re: Next Labour Leader
Labour lead by 17 with Opinium, 21 with Ipsos. They are long term, established, reputable.
Never heard of the plethora of new pollsters.
- Loftyhammer
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Re: Next Labour Leader
You’re making predictions on the mechanics of it, which is fine….I’ll wait until I see some detail before dismissing itSammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:28 pm The principle of abolishing hereditary peers was a good one. 25 years on how's it gone?
All that will happen is parties will stick the cronies into safe lords seats and call it democracy.
Or even fully supporting it
- SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: Next Labour Leader
I wasn't predicting anything I was asking as I haven't read up on it. Presumably this has been thought through more than just the headline.Loftyhammer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:29 am You’re making predictions on the mechanics of it, which is fine….I’ll wait until I see some detail before dismissing it
Or even fully supporting it
If it's an election then people will need to stand and run campaigns. The existing political parties are the ones with the mechanics to run those campaigns.
- Loftyhammer
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Re: Next Labour Leader
Apologies if I misread your quote...but when you said "All that will happen is....." then I took that as a prediction.SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:48 am I wasn't predicting anything I was asking as I haven't read up on it. Presumably this has been thought through more than just the headline.
If it's an election then people will need to stand and run campaigns. The existing political parties are the ones with the mechanics to run those campaigns.
Anyway - I read it as some kind of elected chamber - and to your point; it's only a very high level statement at this stage (I think?)- loads of detail to flesh out - or at least share with the public. And might still be rubbish or unworkable
- delbert
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Re: Next Labour Leader
Saying the right things:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63707941
and upsetting the moon howlers:
https://socialistworker.co.uk/what-we-t ... migration/
He still has the difficult task of shifting his bandwagon jumping reputation, but at least he's upsetting the right people..........
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63707941
and upsetting the moon howlers:
https://socialistworker.co.uk/what-we-t ... migration/
He still has the difficult task of shifting his bandwagon jumping reputation, but at least he's upsetting the right people..........
- sendô
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Re: Next Labour Leader
I personally dont think the HoL needs abolishing, I just think it needs reforming. There's a lot to be said for a second chamber scrutinising and checking the HoC. Just look at the Brexit bills. It certainly needs reducing in number. All of the Lords spiritual can f*** off, and the hereditary Lords. I can't see that merely having another fully elected chamber akin to the HoC is any good for anyone, and I actually agree with bubbs that long term being elected will lend legitimacy to the HoL to having equal standing to the HoC unless it's properly codified in a constitution of sorts.
Personally I think there needs to be a root and branch overhaul of all layers of government. The powers and extent of the devolved parliaments, are they subordinate to the HoC or not? Mary Doll certainly doesn't think the Scottish parliament is. The numerous different types of councils, unitary authorities etc. How they are funded, differing levels of council tax, and not to mention the many mayors who do nothing but add another layer of
bureaucracy and give the government someone else to argue with/blame.
Personally I think there needs to be a root and branch overhaul of all layers of government. The powers and extent of the devolved parliaments, are they subordinate to the HoC or not? Mary Doll certainly doesn't think the Scottish parliament is. The numerous different types of councils, unitary authorities etc. How they are funded, differing levels of council tax, and not to mention the many mayors who do nothing but add another layer of
bureaucracy and give the government someone else to argue with/blame.
- Loftyhammer
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Re: Next Labour Leader
I think the "Abolishing House of Lords" is a very literal headline grabber; and the thinking is to retain an upper chamber but do away with the hereditary (and gifted) nature of the selection - which is pretty much what you've laid out. Don't disagree with your second para....but current politicians need to back it - and that always has a risk of being akin to turkeys voting for Xmas!sendô wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:27 am I personally dont think the HoL needs abolishing, I just think it needs reforming. There's a lot to be said for a second chamber scrutinising and checking the HoC. Just look at the Brexit bills. It certainly needs reducing in number. All of the Lords spiritual can **** off, and the hereditary Lords. I can't see that merely having another fully elected chamber akin to the HoC is any good for anyone, and I actually agree with bubbs that long term being elected will lend legitimacy to the HoL to having equal standing to the HoC unless it's properly codified in a constitution of sorts.
Personally I think there needs to be a root and branch overhaul of all layers of government. The powers and extent of the devolved parliaments, are they subordinate to the HoC or not? Mary Doll certainly doesn't think the Scottish parliament is. The numerous different types of councils, unitary authorities etc. How they are funded, differing levels of council tax, and not to mention the many mayors who do nothing but add another layer of
bureaucracy and give the government someone else to argue with/blame.
- OFT
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Re: Next Labour Leader
Too many in there with no obvious merit I agree but the idea of an elected HoL is hideous, see the USA.
- delbert
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Re: Next Labour Leader
The enemy within doing their best to keep them in opposition:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ims-abbott
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ims-abbott
- bubbles1966
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Re: Next Labour Leader
Starmer, Miliband, Cooper, Reeves, Thornberry.....delbert wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:16 pm The enemy within doing their best to keep them in opposition:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ims-abbott
Procul Harum will be their election theme tune.
- Danny's Dyer Acting
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Re: Next Labour Leader
How does this work? Will Labour need to declare this advert on the front page of the Mail as a campaign contribution of some sort?
- sendô
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Re: Next Labour Leader
Wait, so you mean to tell me there's 200 businesses stuffed full of toffs not paying their fair share of VAT, and the Mail have just kindly exposed them?
I've clearly misjudged that publication.
I've clearly misjudged that publication.
- dave_l
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Re: Next Labour Leader
It’s a good headline and a decent idea in theory but I’d like to see what the impact will be on the state system of a sudden influx of kids from families who are just about affording the fees and couldn’t swallow the subsequent increase. What additional funding and space will be needed to accommodate them? In my experience, not every kid who goes to private school is the kid of a hedge fund manager or footballer.