sendô wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:56 pm
Yet none of them can fathom why the "red wall" went blue last GE.
Yeah, nothing to do with the relentless demonisation of the then Labour leadership, nothing to do with blanket positive media coverage of Johnson ( perhaps with the exception of Piers Morgan), nothing to do with people swallowing whatever rubbish they read on social media etc...... rather than credible sources etc....
People are a lot more politically ignorant these days than compared to say the 70s or 80s. Largely down to successive Tory government clobbering the trade unions. I know that it was through union meetings that I received my political education.
Perhaps those in the red wall who voted against their own best interests will end up learning the hard way - fuel shortages, gas prices skyrocketing and gas firms going bust, fuel in depots and not at petrol stations due to a lack of drivers, shortages of NHS staff, end of furlough and possibly high unemployment. It could all add up - I'm hoping they might start thinking ' Well i wanted him to get Brexit done but not for this !' Because you've got to have hope.
But while Starmer fails to ( not that he's ever actually tried) unite Labour, and provides little in the way of true opposition, there's little hope of any real change.
I love the way the far left blame bad media coverage for the reason for labour's down fall. Perhaps it was because Corbyn refused to talk to any non-left wing media was the problem.
At least Sir Keir, makes the effort to do the media rounds.
Labour needs to get out of the echo chamber. Listen to those they are meant to represent.
ironsonthebrain wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:48 am
Perhaps those in the red wall who voted against their own best interests will end up learning the hard way - fuel shortages, gas prices skyrocketing and gas firms going bust, fuel in depots and not at petrol stations due to a lack of drivers, shortages of NHS staff, end of furlough and possibly high unemployment. It could all add up - I'm hoping they might start thinking ' Well i wanted him to get Brexit done but not for this !' Because you've got to have hope.
I am sure those in the Red Wall appreciate London socialists looking from afar, and making policy to change their lives, without actually living the real life issues.
As for furlough, don't you think it has caused all those issues mentioned? Who do you think pays for the furlough? The key workers do. Those usually on lower pay. How are they rewarded? Tax hike.
Tax the rich! And when they leave or have no money left, guess who picks up the bill. But then that is the doorway into true socialism. Drag everyone down to the same level, except members.
We need two, a sensible centre left Party and a far left party. All the dreamers, idiots and dangerous cranks can then bugger off out of harms way in their own little unelectable maniacal sneering utopia.
Free from the far left parasites the sensible centre left party can then go about the important business of being a seriously electable opposition party.......
Roll the clock back 40 years to the Social Democratic Party?
Watched the thing about Blair and Brown briefly tonight.
Tony Blair in an early interview effectively saying circa 1983 when Labour lost unexpectedly that the grassroots party no longer represented what the working class voter wanted.
It seems Labour have come full circle again.
They're seemingly at another crossroads - another form of Blairism or an eternity in opposition.
I've been a Tory voter all my life, but I'm so sick of the Tories and their failings I'd love to vote for someone else. I never wanted Boris as leader, he is as awful as I expected him to be. The party is full of utter idiots from Hancock to Grayling. They deserve to be voted out en masse.
The problem is for the first time I could vote Labour, if Labour resembled the middle ground as it did under Blair. However after the nonsense I heard at their conference last week, and the remnants of Corbyn that still seem to be carrying weight, it hardly makes them attractive.
How can we not a have a proper centre ground party in this country?
Bend it like Repka wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:41 am
I've been a Tory voter all my life, but I'm so sick of the Tories and their failings I'd love to vote for someone else. I never wanted Boris as leader, he is as awful as I expected him to be. The party is full of utter idiots from Hancock to Grayling. They deserve to be voted out en masse.
The problem is for the first time I could vote Labour, if Labour resembled the middle ground as it did under Blair. However after the nonsense I heard at their conference last week, and the remnants of Corbyn that still seem to be carrying weight, it hardly makes them attractive.
How can we not a have a proper centre ground party in this country?
Your lucky I have Boris as my MP. Complete waste of time him being ours as he he is never here. What did someone once say, what did tbe Romans/Boris ever do for this country?
I think it probably is time for the green wall, tbh.
I've never been a fan of the Tories, and in the last 5 years this lot have shown themselves to be the very worst incarnation in my lifetime. Johnson is an absolute joke and if he is the best they have I really do despair.
Yet when it comes to Labour, they really haven't given me any reasons to vote for them. I prefer Starmer to Corbyn, but if I were to vote for them I don't really know what I would be voting for. I can handle a few of their maniacs in the party because that's politics, I can even handle the issues they have in terms of there in-fighting (are they any worse than the Tories), but what annoys me is I don't really know what they're offering me.
I can't see myself voting for either of the big two for a while to be honest. I do find it odd that people feel so obliged to vote for one or t'other though.
ironsonthebrain wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:48 am
Yeah, nothing to do with the relentless demonisation of the then Labour leadership, nothing to do with blanket positive media coverage of Johnson ( perhaps with the exception of Piers Morgan), nothing to do with people swallowing whatever rubbish they read on social media etc...... rather than credible sources etc....
People are a lot more politically ignorant these days than compared to say the 70s or 80s. Largely down to successive Tory government clobbering the trade unions. I know that it was through union meetings that I received my political education.
Perhaps those in the red wall who voted against their own best interests will end up learning the hard way - fuel shortages, gas prices skyrocketing and gas firms going bust, fuel in depots and not at petrol stations due to a lack of drivers, shortages of NHS staff, end of furlough and possibly high unemployment. It could all add up - I'm hoping they might start thinking ' Well i wanted him to get Brexit done but not for this !' Because you've got to have hope.
But while Starmer fails to ( not that he's ever actually tried) unite Labour, and provides little in the way of true opposition, there's little hope of any real change.
While there is undoubtedly a clear vote against their own interests, the media impact on the 2019 election is overplayed. The truth is Corbyn faced hostility in 2017 and thanks to a woeful Tory campaign, plus an effective Labour one, confidence and supply was forced on the Tories.
The major difference in 2019 was that Corbyn’s Labour was a disappointment after the honeymoon period wore off. Be it the response to the Salisbury incident, the shifting position on the binary that was Brexit, plus a lack of cohesion meant Labour were a sitting duck in 2019. There was also huge factional matters internally including the “unseat” campaign which was a waste of resources and the “democracy” campaign which was focussing on candidates in safe seats rather than on the swing. I recall on the night of the election there was a rally call with a couple of hours to go to race to Uxbridge to try and unseat Boris. He ended up winning by a substantial margin, while a reasonably adjacent seat in Kensington was lost by hundreds.
Labour taking responsibility for why 2019 went to poorly is crucial. And just pointing to the Daily Mail doesn’t cut it when the are key factors at play.
The new Blair and Brown years doc series on the BBC is a fascinating watch. I couldn't stand Blair back in the day and was pretty much ambivalent when it came to Brown, but looking back you could at least associate them with some form of policy, or direction. Their party conference speeches actually involved them telling people what they were planning to do, rather than hoping to get away with 45 mins of saying the square root of F all, then getting the hell out of there as quickly as possible. And when a minister did something stupid (Mandleson), or even might have done something stupid (Mandelson again) that reflected badly on the government they got fired.
No one seems to say or do anything with any sense of clarity, long term planning or respect for the voter anymore. I'm not sure there's ever been a time on modern history with less of a sense of leadership, opposition or protest vote.
Dieter Eckstein wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:09 pm
No one seems to say or do anything with any sense of clarity, long term planning or respect for the voter anymore. I'm not sure there's ever been a time on modern history with less of a sense of leadership, opposition or protest vote.
I agree, in fact I'd go further and suggest every vote has become a protest vote in so far as they're more about stopping the other guy than endorsing your own. We've got to this stage through a lack of decent leaders to vote for, how though have we got to the point where we have such poor choices?
Has televising parliament and social media lead to it becoming theatre rather than governing-ship?
Televising etc, while in theory making it more accessible to the public has, IMO, highlighted the gulf between our elected leaders, and the day to day reality of ordinary peoples lives.
Dieter Eckstein wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:09 pm
No one seems to say or do anything with any sense of clarity, long term planning or respect for the voter anymore. I'm not sure there's ever been a time on modern history with less of a sense of leadership, opposition or protest vote.
I'd say it's the result of a speedier world. The media and politics are just fuel for each others fire these days. From the moment Nixon sweated on TV next to youthful JFK it's been an ever accelerating race to be the next 'new thing'. It's about controlling the message by controlling the limelight. As we digest information in smaller and smaller chunks there is no place for considered policy. Trump was the ultimate so far but won't be the pinnacle, in a few years politicians will have 5 seconds or 10 words before people turn off. It doesn't leave much room for nuance.
SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:21 pm
I'd say it's the result of a speedier world. The media and politics are just fuel for each others fire these days. From the moment Nixon sweated on TV next to youthful JFK it's been an ever accelerating race to be the next 'new thing'. It's about controlling the message by controlling the limelight. As we digest information in smaller and smaller chunks there is no place for considered policy. Trump was the ultimate so far but won't be the pinnacle, in a few years politicians will have 5 seconds or 10 words before people turn off. It doesn't leave much room for nuance.
