Wilko1304 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:39 am
If we stay up and get to a European final, then the justification for sacking him is weakened. Stay up and win it? We would be fools.
Go down and win? Tempted to keep him.
End of the day, they're all trades the majority of people would have taken. If someone had said at the start of the year: "17th and you win the ECL" then you'd take it.
I think the relevance of the past two seasons is that they are probably good enough to have earned a blip season. If the powers that be at the club think the recruitment will come good and the squad will play for the manager, I can 100% see the logic of giving him another year. Much of the same and his leeway is gone, and so is he.
Even winning the ECL and staying up the main issue is it’s not just a blip season in terms of league form, it’s been going on at least half of last season and more worryingly we aren’t showing many signs of improving in terms of PPG.
The summer window would be a big issue, do you give him more money to spend after not doing a very good job of incorporating new players? Does he get to decide on the signings despite his job potentially being in a precarious position, players that the new coach might not want? Do you go over his head and sign players he might not necessarily want but Newman etc thinks are good for the club and would fit into (hopefully) long term thinking
goa127 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:25 am
They didn't really get up a head of steam although they edged the first half. our VAR refusal seemed to energise them at the end of the half. It's one of those games that if you played it over again ten times we'd win 9, but that's just football. Unfortunately it proved to be a pivotal game
That's not how I remember it, I remember us sitting back and them being all over us at least the first twenty minutes.
It was Moyes who said he warned the team they had to weather the storm and he thought we did that.. We obviously remember it differently... But we lost so the approach gained 0 points.
Up the Junction wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:36 am
That's a shame, for as insignificant as it would appear to you West Ham are the first club to achieve this in the UCL.
What a tournament that has existed for under two seasons and contains teams that basically finished mid table in their leagues to qualify?
Hardly the champions league is it?
Look, i would love to win it. Not saying that. See West Ham win a trophy would be fantastic, just as I would like us to win the league cup. League cup is not a major trophy but its still a trophy.
But that at the expense of our league form and even league standing?
No way. Hypothetically Moyes could win the champions league and be teetering on relegation in the league and i would feel the same way.
Believer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:51 am
Agreed. The Palace and Leicester defeats have probably annoyed me more than any others this season.
We allowed teams who were on poor form to take points due to our lack of urgency. We could and should have won these games but at worst we should have got 2 draws.
Southampton away for me. They were in terrible form and we let them settle. Controversial opener accepted, but we only woke up once we were a goal down and at that point we were bashing against a locked and double bolted door.
One of a number very good second half performances this season, but against a set defence with a goal advantage which is happy for us to play and shoot in front of them.
Rozzop wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:42 am
What a tournament that has existed for under two seasons and contains teams that basically finished mid table in their leagues to qualify?
Hardly the champions league is it?
You mean the Champions League where a good portion of quarter/semi finalists finished 4th in their leagues to qualify?
goa127 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:48 am
If anything the away game at Forest was tactically effective. We had a perfectly good goal ruled out by VAR, missed a penalty and hit the woodwork 3 times, and had many shots saved. It certainly set the tone for the season but not in terms of tactics.
Forest (A) and Brentford at home are the only two games this season when, IMHO, we really started the game with the right mindset and tempo and looked to really turn the screw
Other than that we have been overly cautious and passive
There have been other games, like Villa last game, where the opposition have sat back and allowed us to have the ball but we haven't really looked to really commit men forward/ take risks to push the advantage. Yes a couple of half chances here and there, but no real spell of attacking dominance.
Last edited by Crouchend_Hammer on Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
D C wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:27 am
Even winning the ECL and staying up the main issue is it’s not just a blip season in terms of league form, it’s been going on at least half of last season and more worryingly we aren’t showing many signs of improving in terms of PPG.
The summer window would be a big issue, do you give him more money to spend after not doing a very good job of incorporating new players? Does he get to decide on the signings despite his job potentially being in a precarious position, players that the new coach might not want? Do you go over his head and sign players he might not necessarily want but Newman etc thinks are good for the club and would fit into (hopefully) long term thinking
Yep far more to it than simply winning the final.
We could be robbed by VAR and that shouldn't change the fate of the manager.
It's far more detailed and have to look at performances.
Additionally if we did consider Moyes staying what's his plan.
Do we need to ship out most of the summer signings and replace with more functional and suited to Moyes.
The chairman/director of football will also need to consider will the current players perform for the manager long term.
Certainly feels to me a team of grafters are happier with Moyes as his tactics approach get more from them as a unit. He can make them more than the sum of their parts.
Guys that want to express themselves and have more freedom may feel Moyes tactics inhibit them.
Lil Joe 17 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:46 am
You mean the Champions League where a good portion of quarter/semi finalists finished 4th in their leagues to qualify?
4th from the strongest leagues in Europe. Not Cyprus and Belgium. You're not seeing Rangers win the champions league any time soon but they did ok in the Conference league last season
Rozzop wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:02 am
No I mentioned I don't think we will the conference league because our league form is so poor.
I dont count winning 10 games in Europe against poor opposition as anything to write home about.
Fiorentina and Nice are a bigger test
But any team in the Top 10 in the PL would be favorites to beat these.I believe we have the players,but the manager is dragging them down in the PL.All we can hope for is that Moyes let's us play with freedom in Europe,like we seem to be and we can win this thing.If he don't,we won't,simple has that,because it will go the same way of League form.
If we won the ECL and stayed up, it wouldn't surprise me if Moyes was happy to walk away anyway
He then gets to leave with a trophy on his CV and his reputation intact (both within our fanbase and wider football world) thus allowing him to get some decent job offers
He might want a fresh start as much as a lot of West Ham supporters do
Tezza65 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:56 am
But any team in the Top 10 in the PL would be favorites to beat these.I believe we have the players,but the manager is dragging them down in the PL.All we can hope for is that Moyes let's us play with freedom in Europe,like we seem to be and we can win this thing.If he don't,we won't,simple has that,because it will go the same way of League form.
Thats the thing. Surely we should be heavy favourites to win it anyway looking at the teams left in it. I just cant get exited about a tournament we should be favourites to win and in the meantime are languishing in the relegation zone in the actual league.
I want a fresh start and I know there’s no room for sentiment, but if we won the Conference and stayed up, I’m keeping Moyes to start next season unless he wants to amicably part.
Very bad look to get rid of the guy who managed you to a trophy. I’d also feel comfortable enough going into a Europa campaign.
I reckon he’d be sacked by Christmas, mind, but he would deserve to stay on to start if he gives us that achievement.
Aztec Hammer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:06 pm
I want a fresh start and I know there’s no room for sentiment, but if we won the Conference and stayed up, I’m keeping Moyes to start next season unless he wants to amicably part.
Very bad look to get rid of the guy who managed you to a trophy. I’d also feel comfortable enough going into a Europa campaign.
I reckon he’d be sacked by Christmas, mind, but he would deserve to stay on to start if he gives us that achievement.
I think I agree with that, would be difficult to say goodbye.
Rozzop wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:42 am
What a tournament that has existed for under two seasons and contains teams that basically finished mid table in their leagues to qualify?
Hardly the champions league is it?
Look, i would love to win it. Not saying that. See West Ham win a trophy would be fantastic, just as I would like us to win the league cup. League cup is not a major trophy but its still a trophy.
But that at the expense of our league form and even league standing?
No way. Hypothetically Moyes could win the champions league and be teetering on relegation in the league and i would feel the same way.
Surely the league is the bread and butter.
It is "A" league, not the only one. We will still be in "A" league next season, we are very unlikely to get another European tour(possibly for decades) unless we win the Isthsmian Euro league.
Rozzop wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:55 am You're not seeing Rangers win the champions league any time soon but they did ok in the Conference league last season
Rangers didn't compete in the Conference League last season but they did participate in the Champions League this season.
Rozzop wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:00 pmSurely we should be heavy favourites to win it anyway looking at the teams left in it. I just cant get exited about a tournament we should be favourites to win and in the meantime are languishing in the relegation zone in the actual league.
That's pretty dismissive of very strong teams such as Nice and Alkmaar.
And if you "can't get excited" about the prospect of West Ham winning a European trophy for the first time in 58 years, I feel sorry for you.
I'm not a huge fan of UCL, this tournament didn't even exist a few years ago, and some of the teams we've played are mid-table in their own leagues, funnily enough, the highest placed domestically - FCSB finished 3rd in Romania, won 0 from 6 in our group.
But I do want the trophy, but let's not kid ourselves, we've had no test. Nice, AZ, Fiorentina, heck even Gent who is next up, will finally test us.
And you can only beat what is in front of you etc, I get it.
Rozzop wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:42 am
Hypothetically Moyes could win the champions league and be teetering on relegation in the league and i would feel the same way.
Surely the league is the bread and butter.
That’s madness.
What’s the point of West Ham being in the Premier League, for you? Genuinely, I’m intrigued to why it matters so much.
For me, it’s because you’re likely to have better players and, thus, more likely to win a cup.
Unless league form takes a dramatic upturn, he should go regardless of whether we win the ECL.
I think it would actually be very shrewd of him to leave on the back of a cup win, he leaves a hero and the league form is forgotten about. He can then move to Celtic, for instance, as a European cup winner and see out his managerial days there.
D C wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:27 am
Even winning the ECL and staying up the main issue is it’s not just a blip season in terms of league form, it’s been going on at least half of last season and more worryingly we aren’t showing many signs of improving in terms of PPG.
The summer window would be a big issue, do you give him more money to spend after not doing a very good job of incorporating new players? Does he get to decide on the signings despite his job potentially being in a precarious position, players that the new coach might not want? Do you go over his head and sign players he might not necessarily want but Newman etc thinks are good for the club and would fit into (hopefully) long term thinking
I get your point, but we haven’t won anything (proper) in my lifetime. It would be a massive achievement. Even getting to a final is big.
With that in mind, he’d be the best manager we’ve had in the modern era and one of our very best ever were he to win it.
As for the money, I’d follow the same model and hope we were a bit better for it this time. Newman leads, Moyes has his say. All I’d change is the focus, moving to a more suitable type of player and more to complement rather than overhaul.
Were it to happen again, the fall to the relegation battle, then the justification would stand, and I’d get rid, saying that it was clearly an issue he hasn’t been able to fix, rather than a blip. I’m not saying it’s definitely a blip, but he’d be fine arguing it as such.
Wilko1304 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:35 pm
That’s madness.
What’s the point of West Ham being in the Premier League, for you? Genuinely, I’m intrigued to why it matters so much.
For me, it’s because you’re likely to have better players and, thus, more likely to win a cup.
The social aspect for me. When we have played so badly that my Spurs supporting mates don’t even take the piss then that bothers me.
Thankfully my Brighton supporting boss has retired…
But at a certain level I agree it should be a means to an end but we know the manager gets measured on it due to the financial impact and therefore doing poorly in the league tends to influence those cup runs as it will likely alter his priorities. I’d feel a lot more confident about the ECL if we were even sitting in the position Palace are. A slip or two and I think we try and sneak by in the cup at some point.
