David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Up the Junction »

Romford_Iron wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:37 pmBut one thing I’ve always said this season is that I just want some continuity. We’ve gone through so many managers with completely different styles over the past 10 years that we ended up with a horribly unbalanced squad with players suited for different systems. So I’ve wanted Moyes to stay for a while and build a team that is balanced and can then be improved upon. And I actually don’t think we’re too far from that.
The importance of such a policy cannot be stressed enough. It's a drum I've been banging on here for the last 20+ years.

The club are bearing the fruits of sticking with one man through thick and thin, despite the near hysterical cries at times from some for his replacement. The last time WHUFC did that was with Johnny Lyall, who won an FA Cup and reached a League Cup Final within three years of leading his team to relegation, before achieving the club's highest ever top-flight finish.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by The Straw »

Rust wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:17 pm Nice try.

I don't like Moyes but was a fan of Allardyce. And Billic. And Pellegrini.

My logic is pretty simple really:

A manager's job is to optimise his team. Moyes did that in his first 2 seasons, but this season has shown he can't do that with better players.

Negative tactics are fine if you're getting results or the pragmatism is necessary.
Haha i'm not trying anything on mate! Everyone is different and that's fair enough. It doesn't bother me. I'm enjoying the ride whilst acknowledging it can be frustrating. Big picture though is that we haven't had it this good as fans for ages.

Pure logic dictates that Moyes has done much better than the three managers you've listed there.

We were nowhere near what we've done in the last few years under any of them. Nowhere near.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by El brooko79 »

Romford_Iron wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:48 pm Sorry, but I just can’t wrap my head around anyone thinking that if he wins the ECL he deserves to stay and/or get a contract extension. Whether we win the ECL or not should have absolutely nothing to do with whether you think he should stay next season. He is either the man to take us forward or not, and that view should be based on his entire time here. Not one game, not the past 6 months, nor the past 18 months, but his entire tenure.

Like if you think the performances over the past 18 months have been terrible, that’s cool. And if you think he can’t work with better players, that’s cool too. I don’t agree, but I can see how people have that opinion. But to do a complete 180 and change your mind based on one game is absolutely ridiculous.
I'd agree 100% about whether he stays and I cannot believe even our board would put the decision on the outcome of 1 game. A game that can be decided by a penalty kick or var decision.
I'd hope it's decided already.

But yes I am someone who thinks our league performances have been mostly poor since 2022 but I certainly think Moyes deserves an opportunity to turn that around no matter what happens on the 7th.

And I do think we need to improve and wouldn't put everything on the manager.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by jastons »

hammer1975 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 3:31 pm Nothing will convince me that we didn’t have a few players holding back subconsciously because of the pending World Cup.

Absolutely ludicrous that it was mid-season and hope it never happens again.
Not saying you are right or wrong but if you are right then wouldn't every other club have players holding back?
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Geoff Hurts »

Ironing Board wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:26 pm Saying we were “extremely poor” in the majority of games is just nonsense unless you speak in hyperbole and don’t understand the meaning of words.
I think it is fair to say that in the league there were many sub par performances. There was also a number of performances that warranted better results. VAR probably robbed us overall of between 6 to 8 points and I am including some decisions that went our way in that.

The debate perhaps should be about whether you agree that playing 3 games a week for extended periods, coupled with a number of injuries is sufficient excuse for Moyes not to have got more from the squad.

I have come round to thinking that no real preseason, the interruption of a winter world cup coupled to the extra games is the main reason, so Moyes gets a pass from me this time round. I did have a wobble, I did think it might be time to part company with him. I am glad we didn't as I prefer a West Ham that sticks by its managers rather than binning them off.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by last.caress »

jabbaglob123 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:35 pm I think should we win the ECL he deserves another season and a contract extension (not good to have a manager in post with a year left).

I think if we fail to win in Prague, it's best to part ways this summer and thank him for his work.
But then we're just back to "Moyes has ONE GAME to save his job!" histrionics, and the margin there is far too fine. What if we lose on penalties? What if the difference between us winning it and losing it comes down to a world-class save by Terracciano, or Rice clipping the crossbar? We sack Moyes off of that? And, so, what if we win by a similarly wafer-thin margin? What if Fiorentina are clearly the better side throughout but we nick it when the ball bounces in off Mic's arse while he's facing the wrong way in the 94th minute? Then, we retain Moyes?

He's either earned another season by now, or he's for the chop regardless of the result in Prague (which I would find absolutely demented tbh).
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Ironing Board »

Geoff Hurts wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:19 pm I think it is fair to say that in the league there were many sub par performances. There was also a number of performances that warranted better results. VAR probably robbed us overall of between 6 to 8 points and I am including some decisions that went our way in that.

The debate perhaps should be about whether you agree that playing 3 games a week for extended periods, coupled with a number of injuries is sufficient excuse for Moyes not to have got more from the squad.

I have come round to thinking that no real preseason, the interruption of a winter world cup coupled to the extra games is the main reason, so Moyes gets a pass from me this time round. I did have a wobble, I did think it might be time to part company with him. I am glad we didn't as I prefer a West Ham that sticks by its managers rather than binning them off.
Oh yeah, there were plenty of poor ones and a few dire. Newcastle was the one where I really fumed. At the same time, Moyes has an excellent overall record so I think he deserves some leeway, as you say
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by The Straw »

One thing I think we can all agree on is it must be ****ing hard managing West Ham in 2023.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Puff Daddy »

The Straw wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:28 pm One thing I think we can all agree on is it must be ****ing hard managing West Ham in 2023.
A manager of the year thread might not be a bad idea
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Geoff Hurts »

Puff Daddy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:35 pm A manager of the year thread might not be a bad idea
If we had a vote for West Ham United's manager of this season, would David Moyes win it? :crylol:
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Diogenes »

I would be more concerned if Moyes was not aware of our deficiencies this season, but generally he has been open and honest in his assessment of each match and the season as a whole. He is often critical of our performances in his post match interviews, win, lose or draw particularly our (often) inability to take better care of the ball in transition, creativity and finishing. I think it was after the S/F he actually said that this year has been difficult in that we bought ball playing players who would make us more progressive and 2/3rds of the way through the season, for whatever reason, it wasn't working, so reverted to our previous conservative style to turn things around, which he/they did. For me, that doesn't mean he has given up on a more 'progressive' style, just that he is now wiser on the abilities of his new recruits (and so are they) and has another window to recruit further (and/or let players leave) and a pre-season to prepare, hopefully without injuries.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Absolutely Hammered! »

I personally won't be distraught if the club keeps moyes on for another season or 2 but ultimately, I think he is just a means to an end.
With moyes, I think it's very likely that we have seen the peak of his powers with 6th and 7th finishes (great achievements), but by moyes own admission he said that our effective countering style which got us into europe wasn't by design.
So how did he want us to play ?

This season starts, and moyes keeps saying that he "wants us to be a posession based side" and it's a total failure. So much so he said we had to revert back to what worked in the seasons before and thankfully we got out the brown stuff. So he's proven that he can't coach that posession style of play which is where you need to be if you want to mix it with the best teams (see the top 6/7 teams). Sure there have been exceptions like leciester who won the league with 30 odd % possession but that was a freaky season.
So as I say, love moyes for what hes given us and wouldn't be upset if he stayed on, but he has never really proven, at any club, that he has the technical know-how to coach a squad of players to play possession football.
During pre season Moyes talked about things being stale... sadly for moyes the 1 key thing that needs freshening up is the quality of our coaching.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

I'm for wishing him luck after the final whichever way it goes, and bid adieu

there's been times when we've had no intent of attacking the opposition and I don't mean City et al.

we gave far too many teams too much respect that didn't deserve it, he's been far too pragmatic in many other games and again I'm not meaning City. we gave them a real go last season and drew wasn't it 2-2 or was that the season before ?

he's dissed the fans on a few occasions which when 60K turn up every week, the away allocation sells out every game and we took more people away in Europe that the venue could hold. he okayed the transfers, confirmed by him except I think Cornet, he even said that Ings was a scorer even if he couldn't remember how long his contract was, and failed to figure out how to use them. yes he WAS unlucky with injuries, but we've not been the only team to lose players this season, and important players too.

yes he's been a victim of his own success. I wouldn't trust him in the next transfer market to be honest.

again that's just me, and I haven't vacillated back and forth. I think he's done a very good job prior to this season. even if his over use of the squad in the past 2 seasons may (I say MAY) have cost us a CL place season before last and a Europa league spot this. still again, kudos for getting a Euro slot whichever it happens to be there's not may of them going each season.

if he's here again next season, I honestly expect it to be a bit of a repeat of this and then it's going to be pressure on and if we're not doing well by Christmas it'll be the same, One game to secure his future.

and that'll be without Rice I reckon. he's on a bit of a hiding to nothing IF Rice leaves imvho.

a new gaffer would be in a better position with the crowd I reckon.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Marky »

S-H wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:48 pm Surely we can all admit that the majority of performances in the league have been horrendous, regardless of whether you've been fortunate enough to watch us away in Europe this year or not.

Yes Europe has been great this year, and might yet yield our first trophy in 40 odd years, but let's not try and dress up the league campaign as anything other than a huge disappointment, losing 20 out of 38 games is poor.
This!

Come on lets be honest
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by 'stone hammer »

Marky wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:09 pm This!

Come on lets be honest
No one's denying it. Just that some of us don't want Moyes sacked off the back of it.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Ironing Board »

Absolutely Hammered! wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 pm he has never really proven, at any club, that he has the technical know-how to coach a squad of players to play possession football.
Yes he did, at later era Everton.

Eg https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ier-league
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Romford_Iron »

Absolutely Hammered! wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 pm So he's proven that he can't coach that posession style of play which is where you need to be if you want to mix it with the best teams (see the top 6/7 teams). Sure there have been exceptions like leciester who won the league with 30 odd % possession but that was a freaky season.
See that’s where I completely disagree. Failing to implement a new style whilst integrating a heap of new players into the squad doesn’t mean he is completely incapable of doing it. There are a lot of lessons in failure. More so than if we had coasted this year and just done okay. And we all know, when the chips are down Moyes goes back to basics to grind out the wins needed to stop the rot. That doesn’t mean he’s given up trying the new style, or that he’s incapable or doing it. It just means that he did what was needed to get us over the line.

It’s way harder to implement a new style when confidence is down and the pressure is on to pick up wins to stay in the league. Next season we have a fresh slate, the players we signed last season will be more acclimatised to the PL and more integrated into the squad, we’ll add a few more signings and if we start the season better than we did this season, it will give us a lot more breathing space to work on and develop what is needed to advance the way we play.

Moyes has been frank and honest. He’s not happy with the way this season has gone either, but he’s also said that sometimes you take a step backwards before you take two forwards and that is based on previous experience managing teams in the top flight. There’s also quotes from BFS on SkySportsNews that support that view, saying how hard it is to turn around confidence when the slide starts. But Moyes was able to turn that around and now the signings from last summer are starting to come good.

It would be absolute madness to let him go just as he’s started to turn the tide.

The last time he turned the tide we almost qualified for the CL with a much less talented squad. There’s absolutely nothing to suggest that any manager of any kind wouldn’t be able to produce better results once he has a settled squad of players with better quality.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by bubbles1966 »

We have lost too many league games this season, yes.

Probably about five more than normal. Our away form against the absolute rubbish in the division has been really poor and is the difference between a 40 point season, and one that would comfortably be 50-60.

It won't take much to improve that though so a bit of patience will again pay back handsomely just as it has in the second half of the season.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by chigwells finest »

frustrating as moyes can be , and despite myself wanting him gone earlier in the season , we have enough upheaval in the summer post Rice's impending departure , to about turn with a new manager , if after 2 months we are in the same boat, then we will have to change , but imo not until at least then
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Marky »

bubbles1966 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:25 pm We have lost too many league games this season, yes.

Probably about five more than normal. Our away form against the absolute rubbish in the division has been really poor and is the difference between a 40 point season, and one that would comfortably be 50-60.

It won't take much to improve that though so a bit of patience will again pay back handsomely just as it has in the second half of the season.
We are about to lose our best player which most people will think makes us worse

Even the Uber glass half fulls have to at least accept the argument we might struggle. Soucek has been been propped up by Dec. Pls look at Leicster who got to the semi last year. Don’t be complacent
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