David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by WestHamLyallStyle »

:D
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Morocco Mole »

Burnley Hammer wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:59 am Did we used to press more? I noticed yesterday whilst trawling through various analytics websites that we have amongst the worst pressing stats in the league. Have we always been like that?
My memory isn’t great but I don’t recall us ever being a high pressing side.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Colours never run »

We pressed like f*** last couple of seasons, when we were going through our decent spells of football.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Takeiteasy »

Colours never run wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:36 pm We pressed like **** last couple of seasons, when we were going through our decent spells of football.
Too simplistic. Sometimes we did, sometimes we didn’t.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by hammer1975 »

Morocco Mole wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:24 pm My memory isn’t great but I don’t recall us ever being a high pressing side.
Sakho and Valencia
Macca and TC

:chin:

Not under Moyes though, not consistently for a whole game. We’ve not had the legs for it not the tactical inclination.

It’s not about pressing or passing to me anyway - it’s about off the ball movement. We need to be able to play around the press being executed against us by other teams. As soon as we show we can consistently do that then they’ll stop using the exact same strategy against us which forces the ball to either a deep Soucek or an isolated Coufal.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Colours never run »

I remember it vividly. It was very often. I felt eventually we would burn out continuing to do so as our squad wasn't equipped to cope doing that all the time and so it proved but when we are much fresher like we now are, the intensity to press again during many of the games this season, we should be able to cope. The manager just chooses not too which I find bizarre. Sitting back performing old habits with a real lack of movement both in and out of possession is really stifling our play.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by MB »

Colours never run wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:15 pm I remember it vividly. It was very often. I felt eventually we would burn out continuing to do so as our squad wasn't equipped to cope doing that all the time and so it proved but when we are much fresher like we now are, the intensity to press again during many of the games this season, we should be able to cope. The manager just chooses not too which I find bizarre. Sitting back performing old habits with a real lack of movement both in and out of possession is really stifling our play.
I've checked the stats CNR and they say you were doing too much coke...
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by thamesideiron »



Remember watching this...just before he joined us I think...And we did start to do it,at the start of his second spell with us,
can't really understand what changed..I think Dec wants to do it,see him sometimes pushing right up waving his arms at times.

It's a hugely important part of the game these days,City and Red Scouse prove that,they play so high,you never get any time on the
ball,you rely on counters most of the time with them...then they take you out on the halfway line when you do counter...they
have it sussed.

We will never be a serious threat till we master it.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Burnley Hammer »

Was going to reply here but after writing it, thought it was better placed in the stats thread
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Dimension Diver »

thamesideiron wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:10 pm
can't really understand what changed..

I think the tactical reason for the change was that teams were starting to sit back against us, making our counterattacks less effective. So we dropped back and began pressing only at the halfway line to encourage them to come forward. I agree that it doesn't seem to have worked quite as well as the previous system.

However, there's a certain irony in the possibility that the more games we lose, the less likely these teams will fear us and sit back against us, the more effective our counterattack tactics will be. So maybe at some stage we should go back to the "full-pitch press."
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Reg Stretch »

Time for another coach. Thanks for everything moyesy but we need a more progressive coach.We have a strong squad now but need a positive coach…I'm just sick of how negative we set up. Hanging on for 0-0 then have a go last 20 mins.. what a load of rubbish to watch…Front foot first minute. We've the squad to tear teams apart
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by goa127 »

I think sometimes people are making the evidence fit the crime. Generally we haven't played well this season, no doubt. To me it's been more about lack of form from individuals more than tactics. We played defensively against city and Chelsea. Against Chelsea the tactics worked well and should have resulted.in at least one point. The better we pass the better we perform and this season our passing has generally been poor. That's not down to tactics it's down to poor play. When players loose confidence they hoof the ball. That's not instructions it's panic
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Absolutely Hammered! »

Colours never run wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:15 pm I remember it vividly. It was very often. I felt eventually we would burn out continuing to do so as our squad wasn't equipped to cope doing that all the time and so it proved but when we are much fresher like we now are, the intensity to press again during many of the games this season, we should be able to cope. The manager just chooses not too which I find bizarre. Sitting back performing old habits with a real lack of movement both in and out of possession is really stifling our play.
Is the correct answer.
We'd then take an early lead and then teams had no choice but to come out which then gave us a load more counter opportunities. As always, the first goal is so key.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by MB »

goa127 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:37 am I think sometimes people are making the evidence fit the crime. Generally we haven't played well this season, no doubt. To me it's been more about lack of form from individuals more than tactics. We played defensively against city and Chelsea. Against Chelsea the tactics worked well and should have resulted.in at least one point. The better we pass the better we perform and this season our passing has generally been poor. That's not down to tactics it's down to poor play. When players loose confidence they hoof the ball. That's not instructions it's panic
So all of our attacking players (bar maybe Benrahma) have all lost form at the same time as Soucek and Coufal?

Feels less likely to me than the set up not being right.

That also doesn't make sense to me in light of how well we have played when we've been chasing games (second half vs Spurs, last 20 minutes against Everton). Same players but it was like a switch got ****ed when you compare 0-0 to 0-1.

It is 100% the mindset we start games with and the tactics to go with it IMO.

It is taking what Moyes is doing when he feels he has to chase a game and embedding that from the start. It is not like we are going gung-ho in those examples.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by goa127 »

Key players who have lost form ate bowen and souchek. Bowen playing below par affects coufal adversely, and souchek affects our progression. Benfahma is irrelevant because he's totally inconsistent going from brilliant to abysmal
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by szola »

I've posted the link a few months ago.
We were one of the lowest defending teams in any of the top European leagues.

It makes sense.

We've assembled a group of athletes. Counters were our speciality, with crosses against opposition that defend with numbers.

Scamacca doesn't give us the speed of Antonio, but he is better in and around the box.

The rest of the new lads are more or less like for like. Plus better passing.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by YorksHammer »

Eggchaser wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:29 pm Antonio is the incumbent, he played well against FCSB and scored after Scamacca had failed.
By the criteria that both you and neathiron are suggesting, Antonio should then play in the next match, he didn't, presumably Antonio would have started against Newcastle but that didn't happen.
Scamacca was then given a chance against Silkeborg, unfortunately I didn't see the match as I was on a ship in the channel with no internet access, however, from what I have read on here, he did ok, but was knackered after 60 minutes.
Did he do something amazing during his time on the pitch? I've seen the goal, it was a good goal, did he actually do anything else that was special?

If not he's done nothing that Antonio didn't do in the previous game, so Antonio retains the shirt in the PL.
Scammaca continues to start the Europa games and gets the chance to impress there.
Scamacca has to show something more to replace him, or Moyes has to play both.

As I said earlier, IMO, there are bigger issues than simply Antonio or Scamacca, personally I'd quite like to see Fornals/Antonio/Bowen replaced with Cornet/Scamacca/Antonio, and probably with Rice, Paqueta and either Downes or Fornals behind them which might enable us to pass through the middle occasionally.
Don't disagree on the last paragraph there.

The issue with the rest is that it's all opinions - in mine, while he might not be banging the goals in for fun, we've looked a better team in Europe with Scamacca at the front than we have in the Premier League with Antonio there. I also thought Scamacca did nothing worse than Antonio in the start he had against Villa compared with Antonio's starts. It's probably unfortunate that he then got ill, as I suspect he'd have kept the shirt for the PL coming off that performance, at least to have some continuity.

I also don't think Scamacca was anywhere near as bad as some think against FCSB, I think a lot of what he did is clouded by him having an off day with his shooting but in terms of our attacking play I actually felt he was kind of central to a lot of anything good we did that first half, whether it was being on the end of passes or switching the ball to the wingers from inside to create chances for others. Just think - with one particularly glaring one - his misses overshadowed his overall play. That continued against Silkeborg - where he had one shot all game and scored with it.

I think we're a better, more fluid, and more interesting attacking proposition with Scamacca than we are with Antonio. Antonio's great if you want someone to bludgeon through a defence - in fact, the Conference League might be the best competition to make use of him as a regular starter, at least at this stage - but Scamacca is going to create you more from his play, even if it not through direct involvement.

Ultimately, Antonio has been 'out of form' now for a good 9 months, if you include the summer. There's no point signing a £30m+ sexy beast of a man that plays in his position if you're not going to actually make use of him as a starter when he's chronically underperforming.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by goa127 »

Is Antonio out of form at the moment? I'd say he's been decent, more a problem with others around him. Not that I'm anti scAmaçca, just don't think it's a simple either/or
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Burnley Hammer »

I think it all comes down to a reduced efficiency in the final third. The defensive midfield and defence don't really look any better or worse than last season. We're simply not producing the goods when it comes to testing an oppositions defence and goalkeeper. An off form Bowen has its part to play in that.

Whether that's down to players simply being off form or whether its down to most teams completely sussing out how we play and how to nullify our threats... that's for Moyes to work out
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by swerley »

Are not Moyes' tactics a bit limited by having to have the left forward spend most of their time (and energy) covering for the left back's defensive deficiencies - and likewise on the right? People keep going on about how modern full backs have to cover the entire length of the field (off & def) for the entire game, but I would say that is what our left and right forwards do and it runs them ragged.
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