David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by MB »

Ironing Board wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:10 pm You ignore the big impact of a large influx of players. And Paqueta had injury issues as well, first hurting his shoulder just as he appeared to be coming into form.

But the defence was in such a mess it seriously hampered performances for much of the first half of the season. We were afraid to commit going forward due to this problem. People talk about ostriches, but ignoring or underplaying the knock-on effect of that is truly an example of putting one's head in the sand.
The defence being a mess due to injuries didn't hamper performance. Decisions taken by the manager to address the injury problems at the back hampered performance both as a team and in the output of the individuals required to play that way.

It also failed given how few clean sheets we have kept (far more important to winning games than the actual number of goals conceded).
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

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MB wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:13 pm The defence being a mess due to injuries didn't hamper performance. Decisions taken by the manager to address the injury problems at the back hampered performance both as a team and in the output of the individuals required to play that way.

It also failed given how few clean sheets we have kept (far more important to winning games than the actual number of goals conceded).
It worked to the extent that we have the best defensive record in the bottom half. But obviously if you end up too cagey to protect your backline the attacking output will decline. Its all very fine margins, but with Aguerd and Zouma finally back it gives a really good platform going forward.

The team will be able to really work on its shape during this break and it should result in noticeably improved performances at the business end of the season. Such focus on fundamentals due to Hodgson's coaching style should also see Palace improve quite a bit.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by JohnnyLyall »

So to summarise Moyes is not only sucking the enjoyment out of us fans, but also the players with his negative tactics...



I could have told you that.. :eyes:
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by MB »

Ironing Board wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:19 pm It worked to the extent that we have the best defensive record in the bottom half. But obviously if you end up too cagey to protect your backline the attacking output will decline. Its all very fine margins, but with Aguerd and Zouma finally back it gives a really good platform going forward.
Which is worth a point (effectively). How many have we lost as a result of playing that way? A lot more I'd suggest.

It is fine margins, but Moyes' approach has made them even finer IMO and in certain games that was not necessary.

That analysis is bleak. The manager would have seen it and yet has continued with it.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by JohnnyLyall »

Ironing Board wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:19 pm It worked to the extent that we have the best defensive record in the bottom half.
Season goals right there...

If we're letting in less goals than the rest of the bottom half and still in the bottom three, it's not really working now, is it!
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by 1895Hammer »

MB wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:13 pm The defence being a mess due to injuries didn't hamper performance. Decisions taken by the manager to address the injury problems at the back hampered performance both as a team and in the output of the individuals required to play that way.

It also failed given how few clean sheets we have kept (far more important to winning games than the actual number of goals conceded).
Absolutely, for starters it’s taken until the last few weeks to even give Emerson a chance to prove his worth, and surprise, he looks better than Cresswell. The harsh facts are we are 18th, all the stats are going backwards, but we have £180m of new talent. Ideally we would have bought 2 or 3 in last January rather than all last summer, but who’s decision was that…. and just how long does it take to integrate players, West Ham seem to need far longer than rivals for some reason. We have horribly underperformed this year, no getting away from it.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

JohnnyLyall wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:21 pm So to summarise Moyes is not only sucking the enjoyment out of us fans, but also the players with his negative tactics...



I could have told you that.. :eyes:
It's just a rubbish statement though isn't it?

Two years, we're great, fun to watch, a match for anyone.

Suddenly, we fall apart, set pieces stop contributing to goals, we start sitting back, can't score anymore, leaking goals.

Surely it's not as simple as "Moyes is negative.", Because for two years that wasn't a problem, so what happened? It takes more analysis then just saying "Moyes is negative."

That's not to say he isn't the problem, but I'd be much more interested in why things have become negative rather than just the bland statement of "the manager is negative."
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by MB »

JohnnyLyall wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:21 pm So to summarise Moyes is not only sucking the enjoyment out of us fans, but also the players with his negative tactics...



I could have told you that.. :eyes:
Of course, but it is interesting to see someone support it with data even with a degree of conjecture given there is not data on what is going on in the players minds!
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by MB »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:27 pm Suddenly, we fall apart, set pieces stop contributing to goals, we start sitting back, can't score anymore, leaking goals.

Surely it's not as simple as "Moyes is negative.", Because for two years that wasn't a problem, so what happened? It takes more analysis then just saying "Moyes is negative."

That's not to say he isn't the problem, but I'd be much more interested in why things have become negative rather than just the bland statement of "the manager is negative."
I prefer the word cautious. I think it is Moyes' default setting when faced with a problem. He has faced many problems this season and therefore defaulted to it.

Of itself that isn't a problem IMO. It becomes a problem when you don't try something different when that default setting fails.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Ironing Board »

MB wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:32 pm I prefer the word cautious. I think it is Moyes' default setting when faced with a problem. He has faced many problems this season and therefore defaulted to it.

Of itself that isn't a problem IMO. It becomes a problem when you don't try something different when that default setting fails.
The way I see it is he was focusing on damage control. You may think that was the wrong call, but I guess it all depends on how we finish the season. Personally I think it makes sense from a sporting perspective but obviously it impacts the entertainment quite a bit.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by JohnnyLyall »

I just think teams learned how to stifle us, and our tactics didn't work anymore.

He tried to do something different, not sure exactly what it was to be fair.

He then reverted to what worked in the first place, but didn't work anymore only more "cautiously"
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

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Groundhog day.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by woody »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:27 pm It's just a rubbish statement though isn't it?

Two years, we're great, fun to watch, a match for anyone.

Suddenly, we fall apart, set pieces stop contributing to goals, we start sitting back, can't score anymore, leaking goals.

Surely it's not as simple as "Moyes is negative.", Because for two years that wasn't a problem, so what happened? It takes more analysis then just saying "Moyes is negative."

That's not to say he isn't the problem, but I'd be much more interested in why things have become negative rather than just the bland statement of "the manager is negative."
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by D C »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:27 pm It's just a rubbish statement though isn't it?

Two years, we're great, fun to watch, a match for anyone.

Suddenly, we fall apart, set pieces stop contributing to goals, we start sitting back, can't score anymore, leaking goals.

Surely it's not as simple as "Moyes is negative.", Because for two years that wasn't a problem, so what happened? It takes more analysis then just saying "Moyes is negative."

That's not to say he isn't the problem, but I'd be much more interested in why things have become negative rather than just the bland statement of "the manager is negative."
I’d suggest that we’ve always been poor in our attacking build up for the most part under Moyes even if we were scoring some brilliant goals. We’ve always struggled to be intricate and once teams stopped giving us so much space in behind it was even clearer. We relied heavily on set pieces and individual brilliance/carnage from Antonio, Bowen and previously under Moyes Arnie.

Coaches with more consistent attacking patterns designed to constantly get players in positions to score can also have barren spells in front of goal but it’s a lot less likely for the goals to dry up long term when you have a consistent pattern like that instead of relying on individual brilliance as we did for a couple of years. This isn’t a new critique of Moyes either as many strikers failed under him, too many to be a coincidence IMO
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by MB »

D C wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:00 pm Coaches with more consistent attacking patterns designed to constantly get players in positions to score can also have barren spells in front of goal but it’s a lot less likely for the goals to dry up long term when you have a consistent pattern like that instead of relying on individual brilliance as we did for a couple of years. This isn’t a new critique of Moyes either as many strikers failed under him, too many to be a coincidence IMO
A good point well made.

It is one of the things I struggle to reconcile with Moyes. He is clearly a student of the game, he tries some interesting things like a 4 becoming a 5 in defence, can make slight tweaks in match to change things and yet his teams attack in the most basic ways. Almost like he is just not that interested in that side of things.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by BondsoBob »

This debate. It's like being on a sodding carousel! :shock:
But seriously, have we ever had a manager who divides opinions as much as Moyes?
Maybe Alladyce, but I don't recall the debate initiating so much heated argument as this one.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Shy Ted »

Ironing Board wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:19 pm It worked to the extent that we have the best defensive record in the bottom half. But obviously if you end up too cagey to protect your backline the attacking output will decline. Its all very fine margins, but with Aguerd and Zouma finally back it gives a really good platform going forward.

The team will be able to really work on its shape during this break and it should result in noticeably improved performances at the business end of the season. Such focus on fundamentals due to Hodgson's coaching style should also see Palace improve quite a bit.
Ten of of the first team squad will be at qualifiers/friendlies so I don't know what shape they are going to be working on.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Bring_Back_Connolly »

Ironing Board wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:19 pm
The team will be able to really work on its shape during this break and it should result in noticeably improved performances at the business end of the season.
£50 to Bobby Moore fund when this doesn't happen?
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by EvilC »

Ironing Board wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:19 pm It worked to the extent that we have the best defensive record in the bottom half. But obviously if you end up too cagey to protect your backline the attacking output will decline. Its all very fine margins, but with Aguerd and Zouma finally back it gives a really good platform going forward.

The team will be able to really work on its shape during this break and it should result in noticeably improved performances at the business end of the season. Such focus on fundamentals due to Hodgson's coaching style should also see Palace improve quite a bit.
Why will West Ham and Palace benefit but the rest of the league not?

Palace will benefit more from a relatively easy fixture list until the end of the season more than they will from Hodgson’s “focus on fundamentals” (whatever that means).
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Colours never run »

Ironing Board wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:19 pm The team will be able to really work on its shape during this break and it should result in noticeably improved performances at the business end of the season.
How do you figure that out when half the Team has already buggered off for International duty! They'll be plenty of holes in that shape. :crossed:
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