David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

The Forum for all football-related discussion, including West Ham United FC. Our busiest Forum and the place to begin if you're new to KUMB.

Moderators: Gnome, last.caress, Wilko1304, Rio, bristolhammerfc, the pink palermo, chalks

Post Reply
User avatar
Johnny Byrne's Boots
Posts: 32135
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: Care home dodger
Has liked: 1788 likes
Total likes: 2073 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

the pink palermo wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:29 pm I don't think thats correct JBB.
............
My apologies, I confuzzled board voting with shareholder voting.
User avatar
the pink palermo
Huge noggin
Posts: 45058
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: The Notorious Gate B @LS
Has liked: 759 likes
Total likes: 2940 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by the pink palermo »

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:43 pm My apologies, I confuzzled board voting with shareholder voting.
Bottom line JBB, nobody's out gunning Sully until they pony over the dosh. He will call the shots up until then.
User avatar
Ironing Board
Posts: 22075
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:11 am
Has liked: 2082 likes
Total likes: 1791 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Ironing Board »

This is getting to be a rather long thread :muscle: :lover: :scarfer:
User avatar
Doc H Ball
Posts: 14692
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: on parole
Has liked: 917 likes
Total likes: 1919 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Doc H Ball »

the pink palermo wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:13 pm He will call the shots up until then.
Stick.
User avatar
Hamburger
Posts: 3853
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:59 pm
Location: Sidcup
Has liked: 853 likes
Total likes: 432 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Hamburger »

I think there is something that needs to be factored in about the decision to keep the manager or not - the likelihood of Rice leaving in the next transfer window. I'm guessing his head will be turned after the WC and will not want to stay (providing offers come in for him!). So would the board want to give £100m+ to Moyes or to a new manager? The chances of them renewing Moyes contract in 18 months are slim and there's not many reasons to hang on to him until then. He has done us proud for the last 2 seasons but there's no room for loyalty in this high stakes game and I reckon only 3 out of 4 wins in January will see him stay.
Sawbo
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:45 am
Has liked: 28 likes
Total likes: 28 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Sawbo »

]
So long as it is Brian Poole and the Tremeloes version. Made in Daggers.

That scouse dirge they play at ours is absolute toilet.
[/quote]
Seconded, sir. :newthumb:
hammerman11
Posts: 15811
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:01 pm
Has liked: 25 likes
Total likes: 744 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by hammerman11 »

next few games
arsenal a lose as usual
brentford h lose
leeds a lose
wolves a lose

can`t see us getting anything from any of them. I reckon if we lose the first three then moyes is gone. will give new man the jan window to make some changes.
hopefully rice doesnt go in january because otherwise we will be in deep trouble.

hopefully we hit form and win at arsenal for once. we are certainly due a win.
User avatar
Albie Beck
Posts: 9648
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:42 am
Has liked: 617 likes
Total likes: 639 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Albie Beck »

Cuenca 'ammer wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:35 pm and the Isley Brothers version knock them all into a cocked hat..

:winker:
Possibly - but they're not West Ham like the Dagenham boys :wink:
Gaz
Posts: 1008
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:41 pm
Has liked: 358 likes
Total likes: 192 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Gaz »

I'm very conservative about manager changes so I am still in the 'stick' camp, but three things have been really niggling me that to my mind need to be addressed.

1. The team selection against Blackburn was telling - 7 defensive players against a decent Championship side says a lot about the mindset - that must have given Blackburn a real boost.

2. Using players in the wrong positions - Downes as a 10? Not for me, he is a 4/8 all day long and we have others who should get that role first - if they are not good enough and you look towards Downes as your main playmaker then your transfer business has gone wrong. Paqueta is clearly an 8 but plays too far forward for me, almost up front, he would thrive pulling the strings and having Bowen and Benrahma in front of him rather than behind him or to the side.

3. Man management. Scamacca looks miserable, Paqueta looks confused, neither are bringing their best form. But really this is about Benrahma, the way he is handled is appalling - he has clearly been our best attacker this year, I can tell the guy won't flourish in this environment for much longer. Some players react to the stick, but others need more carrot. While he is in this form, you back him, keep him motivated, keep him going. Don't make him your first sacrifice when things aren't going well.

Anyway, despite this, Moyes deserves the next 10 games at minimum to sort this out. Starting with addressing the balance in midfield, being more courageous in his tactics and selections, but I must admit even I am getting worried the longer this goes on.
YorksHammer
Posts: 9589
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:03 pm
Has liked: 382 likes
Total likes: 1412 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by YorksHammer »

Gaz wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:25 am 3. Man management. Scamacca looks miserable, Paqueta looks confused, neither are bringing their best form. But really this is about Benrahma, the way he is handled is appalling - he has clearly been our best attacker this year, I can tell the guy won't flourish in this environment for much longer. Some players react to the stick, but others need more carrot. While he is in this form, you back him, keep him motivated, keep him going. Don't make him your first sacrifice when things aren't going well.
Benrahma has started and finished three of the last four league games (and did start the odd one out there as well) so I don't think Moyes isn't backing him in recent matches.

I've been really disappointed with how Benrahma has been deployed over the past two years, though, so I definitely get where that is coming from.
Online
User avatar
Diogenes
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:07 pm
Has liked: 432 likes
Total likes: 1144 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Diogenes »

hammerman11 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:48 am next few games
arsenal a lose as usual
brentford h lose
leeds a lose
wolves a lose

can`t see us getting anything from any of them. I reckon if we lose the first three then moyes is gone. will give new man the jan window to make some changes.
hopefully rice doesnt go in january because otherwise we will be in deep trouble.

hopefully we hit form and win at arsenal for once. we are certainly due a win.
That's a little pessimistic H11 and unlikely I feel. In any event, what do you think the chances are of sacking Moyes, getting a new Manager in, finding extra Money and signing any quality players in a fortnight?
User avatar
Sloop John B
The voice of reason
Posts: 7448
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:02 pm
Location: On the High Seas
Has liked: 225 likes
Total likes: 448 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Sloop John B »

Gaz wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:25 am2. Using players in the wrong positions - Downes as a 10? Not for me, he is a 4/8 all day long and we have others who should get that role first - if they are not good enough and you look towards Downes as your main playmaker then your transfer business has gone wrong.
I think this has been shown as a myth, heat maps of that game show Downes sat next to Rice throughout - Feels like too many people taking the starting line up infographic as gospel. We also seem to have a bunch of posters saying Moyes is playing Paqueta out of position and is playing him too deep, and another bunch saying Moyes is playing Paqueta out of position too far up the pitch - both are critical of Moyes not knowing Paqueta's best position - I actually don;t know where best to play him and I recall Misko expressing something similar - but you know "a lot of experts" etc... :winker:
Gaz wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:25 am3. Man management... But really this is about Benrahma, the way he is handled is appalling - he has clearly been our best attacker this year, I can tell the guy won't flourish in this environment for much longer.
I don't really like how Benrahma appears to be treated by Moyes - but I would suggest that Benrahma's performances since joining have got better and better so you could argue that Moyes is actually managing him rather well. From an outsider it feels like Benrahma is being scape-goated a bit, but that may not be the actual state of affairs.
libero
Posts: 5433
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:42 pm
Has liked: 1 like
Total likes: 11 likes

International Moyes?

Post by libero »

A lifelong Iron, I live in beautiful, rainy San Sebastian and I'm a season ticket holder at Real Sociedad where David Moyes had an unhappy and unsuccesful year back in 2014/15.

Based on having watched him closely at Sociedad and from what I'd seen from afar when he was at Man U and Sunderland I was horrified when we appointed him manager at West Ham. But he won me over and to a certain extent I had to eat my words.

But now he's failing again, and I have a theory about why it's not working out this season

While he was at Real Sociedad he completely failed to connect with the people of the city, the mood and tradition of the club and, crucially, the players. Very few of the players spoke English and Moyes made no effort to learn a word of Spanish. There was a complete communication breakdown and the result was dreadful football, very poor results and Moyes failed.

At West Ham Moyes has been succesful when he had a solid core of English speaking players - the English players and guys like Soucek, Coufal and Fabianksi, bringing in guys like Bowen and Dawson. This season there has been an influx of non English speakers and it seems to me that Moyes can't cope. He has lost the previous spirit, he can't understand half his squad and they can't understand him. It happened in the past with players like Kral, Felipe Anderson, Haller and Vlasic, but they were a minority. Now the balance has changed and it seems he's not managing to get his ideas accross to his squad. The fact that he even called out poor Benrahma for his poor English is a sign of lack of empathy on his part. The loss of both Noble and Stuart Pearce has probably exacerbated the problem too

I don't know what the solution is but I think that's the problem. Moyes is very much a "British" manager, but now he finds himself n the midst of an international squad. And maybe he's not got the skillset to succeed in such an environment
mattyD
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:25 pm
Has liked: 268 likes
Total likes: 316 likes

Re: International Moyes?

Post by mattyD »

From what I've heard most of the new recruits speak better English than most of the British born players.


Edit -I think it's more the influx of a lot of players at once and the change to that from a very small, tight squad. Also changes in the coaching staff. Too much change too quick.
User avatar
Danny's Dyer Acting
Posts: 8983
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:37 pm
Has liked: 642 likes
Total likes: 1853 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting »

Looking at the last matchday squad:

6 native speakers
5 in England for 5 years or more
Aguerd, Fornals, Coufal, Soucek, Kehrer who we know all have very good English.

Emerson's English is good enough that we've seen him translating for Paqueta.

That then leaves Areola, Paqueta and Scamacca.

I come at this whole discussion from a position of giving Moyes more leeway than most but if he's struggling with getting his intentions understood by the squad then we have a much bigger issue than I've thought so far!!
User avatar
Ozza
Posts: 28203
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:41 pm
Location: Here, there, every f****** where
Has liked: 945 likes
Total likes: 2366 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Ozza »

Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:27 pm Looking at the last matchday squad:

6 native speakers
5 in England for 5 years or more
Aguerd, Fornals, Coufal, Soucek, Kehrer who we know all have very good English.

Emerson's English is good enough that we've seen him translating for Paqueta.

That then leaves Areola, Paqueta and Scamacca.

I come at this whole discussion from a position of giving Moyes more leeway than most but if he's struggling with getting his intentions understood by the squad then we have a much bigger issue than I've thought so far!!
The language issue is b*llocks (imho), transitioning to the premier league is a known challenge as is a large scale change programme
Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 26349
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate
Has liked: 137 likes
Total likes: 2357 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

The language issue is a red herring as nearly all our players speak very good English

However, it could be the case that culturally there is a mismatch and Moyes may not be sensitive to certain cultural nuances

He does strike me as a manager who would bond/ engage better with Anglo-Saxon/ Northern Europeans than those from Southern Europe/ South America/ Africa who (warning: lazy generalisation alert) may be a little more temperamental

Just a hunch of course. No evidence for it whatsoever
User avatar
Danny's Dyer Acting
Posts: 8983
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:37 pm
Has liked: 642 likes
Total likes: 1853 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting »

Even then you've got 3 players that's potentially applicable to.

There's plenty of obvious reasons this season is proving tough, no need to engage in guesswork.
User avatar
Ironing Board
Posts: 22075
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:11 am
Has liked: 2082 likes
Total likes: 1791 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Ironing Board »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:24 pm The language issue is a red herring as nearly all our players speak very good English

However, it could be the case that culturally there is a mismatch and Moyes may not be sensitive to certain cultural nuances

He does strike me as a manager who would bond/ engage better with Anglo-Saxon/ Northern Europeans than those from Southern Europe/ South America/ Africa who (warning: lazy generalisation alert) may be a little more temperamental

Just a hunch of course. No evidence for it whatsoever
Yet some of his biggest successes were with the skillful Spaniard Arteta, the South African Steven Pienaar and the Nigerians Yakubu and Yobo. In contrast his flops include James Beattie, Croatian Vlasic and the Dane Per Koldrup.
Hammer.CA
Posts: 3139
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:37 pm
Has liked: 2781 likes
Total likes: 607 likes

Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Hammer.CA »

and we’re LIVE from Goodison Park!
Post Reply