David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
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- Wilko1304
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
If we stay up and get to a European final, then the justification for sacking him is weakened. Stay up and win it? We would be fools.
Go down and win? Tempted to keep him.
End of the day, they're all trades the majority of people would have taken. If someone had said at the start of the year: "17th and you win the ECL" then you'd take it.
I think the relevance of the past two seasons is that they are probably good enough to have earned a blip season. If the powers that be at the club think the recruitment will come good and the squad will play for the manager, I can 100% see the logic of giving him another year. Much of the same and his leeway is gone, and so is he.
Go down and win? Tempted to keep him.
End of the day, they're all trades the majority of people would have taken. If someone had said at the start of the year: "17th and you win the ECL" then you'd take it.
I think the relevance of the past two seasons is that they are probably good enough to have earned a blip season. If the powers that be at the club think the recruitment will come good and the squad will play for the manager, I can 100% see the logic of giving him another year. Much of the same and his leeway is gone, and so is he.
Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
Because I'm a sad old man with too much time on my hands I decided to look up season 21/22 results.
We finished with 16 wins and 8 draws 56 pts.
So I thought i'd look at the season from halfway (game 19) to see how steep the decline was
we achieved 8 wins and 4 draws 28 pts.
So far from our form dropping off a cliff we gained EXACTLY 50% of our points in the second half of the season
This wasn't what I expected to find, but we only won one of our last 5 (4-0 v Norwich) although to put it in perspective we lost by the odd goal to Chelsea and Arsenal and had a good 2-2 draw with Man City before our annual capitulation at the Amex.
So yes we've been generally rubbish this season and we finished last season with a bit of a whimper, but no we haven't been terrible for 18 months
We finished with 16 wins and 8 draws 56 pts.
So I thought i'd look at the season from halfway (game 19) to see how steep the decline was
we achieved 8 wins and 4 draws 28 pts.
So far from our form dropping off a cliff we gained EXACTLY 50% of our points in the second half of the season
This wasn't what I expected to find, but we only won one of our last 5 (4-0 v Norwich) although to put it in perspective we lost by the odd goal to Chelsea and Arsenal and had a good 2-2 draw with Man City before our annual capitulation at the Amex.
So yes we've been generally rubbish this season and we finished last season with a bit of a whimper, but no we haven't been terrible for 18 months
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
In response to UTJ's long post that I won't attempt to truncate and quite, Man Utd in the FA Cup is a good example of we fans walking away curing individual errors, naturally drop-off, fitness, mental strength and the like whilst being encouraged by some positive football even against a "big club".
It's when we take a far more conservative approach against Soton or Palace because we're playing the old BS "respect the point" BS that people then rightly criticise and make the comparison.
It's when we take a far more conservative approach against Soton or Palace because we're playing the old BS "respect the point" BS that people then rightly criticise and make the comparison.
- carnage
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
Indeed, I remember seasons where we haven’t even won 10 games.Metal Hammer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:28 am Ok, so this season we have played 40 games, winning 18 and drawing 7 scoring 55 goals and conceding 44, that doesn't look so bad to me.
On the subject of “negative, boring football” we had over 20 shots v Villa. I came on here to posts of “negative”, “boring” and “dinosaur.”
- Denbighammer
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
We're they the right sort of shots though? If they weren't progressive, dynamic, modern shots then I'm afraid I'm not interested.
- Believer
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
Id suggest the 2nd half at Spurs away was every bit as awful as Brighton away.Ironing Board wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:23 am And as bad as Brighton was, we dont play as badly as that very often at all, even this season.
However, we shouldn’t be looking at how many bad performances we have, not with this squad. We’ve got arguably a better squad than the last 2 seasons where we finished 6th and 7th so why are we playing with an inferiority complex ?
Moyes has shown previously that he can match teams so why change to a defensive mode.?
I get that we’ve lucked out on set piece goals and Antonio isn’t what he used to be but, a few tweaks in attack would and should resolve this when you’ve got other options.
We’ve now got Ings, Scamacca, Antonio, Benrahma, Bowen, Cornet and even Mubama who can chip in with goals so a man with his experience should be able to conjure up a winning formula from that lot.
He has to get away from this shut up shop and hope for a free kick or a penalty nonsense. We are better than that. He is better than that.
Edit - on reading Carnage’s post. I’d suggest that he gets our team in for extra shooting practice. I wasn’t actually aware we had as many efforts as that.
- Het-Field
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
I can remember the overwhelming sense of disappointment after that game. To this day, I remember how I felt. It was gutting. To really deserve a win, and fail to secure a point was gutting on so many levels, but above all was the acute sense that we were all but relegated at that stage. I couldn't imagine that we would do what we did over the next 10 weeks or so, but that was easily one of the most disappointing days as a WH fan.
Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
I absolutely agree about this game. The strange thing is that I read Mark Noble writing a few years later that our great performance that day inspired belief in the team that they were good enough. We lost because it was widely believed to be a 'must win' game. A draw would not be good enough. This was patently untrue because we survived despite losing. It's not quite' respect the point' but as someone said on TV earlier in the season, 'If you can't win it, make sure you don't lose it'. Our game against Villa was in that category, with 5 minutes to go I was convinced we'd be sucker punched and get nothing. Fortunately we didn't go gung ho for the winner in the last 5 and got a massively important pointHet-Field wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:24 am I can remember the overwhelming sense of disappointment after that game. To this day, I remember how I felt. It was gutting. To really deserve a win, and fail to secure a point was gutting on so many levels, but above all was the acute sense that we were all but relegated at that stage. I couldn't imagine that we would do what we did over the next 10 weeks or so, but that was easily one of the most disappointing days as a WH fan.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
I feel Moyes set the tone for the season with the away game at Forest, yes we were unlucky in the end.Believer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:11 am Id suggest the 2nd half at Spurs away was every bit as awful as Brighton away.
However, we shouldn’t be looking at how many bad performances we have, not with this squad. We’ve got arguably a better squad than the last 2 seasons where we finished 6th and 7th so why are we playing with an inferiority complex ?
Moyes has shown previously that he can match teams so why change to a defensive mode.?
But going to a newly promoted team who had literally put out a team of strangers against us and telling us to weather their storm is so negative, its all very well keep mentioning the two league finishes and Cup run, but what's the point if we can't take that confidence into a game where we were heavy favourites to win.. It should have been us on the front foot imposing ourselves on them.. Not the other way around..
Probably explains why our away form has been so abysmal.. Its the way we start... Even the only win against Villa we were outplayed first half.. Won by a freak deflected goal.
As you say we approach games with an inferiority complex.. So baffling when it's against a newly promoted team just put together and teams in poor form like Palace at home for example.
- Lil Joe 17
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
It's quite common for a newly promoted team, especially those who have only recently come up to have a barnstorming first home game of the season. This was an example of that IMO.JohnnyLyall wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:00 am I feel Moyes set the tone for the season with the away game at Forest, yes we were unlucky in the end.
But going to a newly promoted team who had literally put out a team of strangers against us and telling us to weather their storm is so negative, its all very well keep mentioning the two league finishes and Cup run, but what's the point if we can't take that confidence into a game where we were heavy favourites to win.. It should have been us on the front foot imposing ourselves on them.. Not the other way around..
- Colours never run
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
He should really be working as a manager in Millets. "Weathering the storm, it's what I do".JohnnyLyall wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:00 am I feel Moyes set the tone for the season with the away game at Forest, yes we were unlucky in the end.
But going to a newly promoted team who had literally put out a team of strangers against us and telling us to weather their storm
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
I disagree, they were strangers and we sat back for 30 minutes and let them, this wasn't a normal promoted team.Lil Joe 17 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:03 am It's quite common for a newly promoted team, especially those who have only recently come up to have a barnstorming first home game of the season. This was an example of that IMO.
As soon as we attacked them we looked a few levels above them and as I said we were unlucky not to win easily.
My point is it set the tone, our attitude should have been welcome to the big league you worry about us, not us you, but we have started every away game and a fair few at home like that.. The tone was set..
Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
I think the stat I read was 14, 8 on target. But I don't disagree with your view of the game. During the game I said to my daughter (she's grown up) it's a shame this game is so vital because it's a decent match and I'd like to just enjoy it. I met my mate in the pub afterwards and we were both pretty upbeat about the game. That's our level, Villa a decent mid table team. Maintain that level and we'll be ok
- MB
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
It is my biggest criticism of Moyes' approach this season. So many times we've faced teams low on confidence but just let them play for the first 20 minutes rather than have a little go. Yes we've also been unlucky with chances we've missed vs ones which the opposition have taken in some matches but too often it has taken going a goal down to wake us up especially away from home.JohnnyLyall wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:07 am I disagree, they were strangers and we sat back for 30 minutes and let them, this wasn't a normal promoted team.
As soon as we attacked them we looked a few levels above them and as I said we were unlucky not to win easily.
My point is it set the tone, our attitude should have been welcome to the big league you worry about us, not us you, but we have started every away game and a fair few at home like that.. The tone was set..
And then my second biggest criticism of Moyes' approach, we get back in the game and too often try and settle for the point. We didn't used to do that.
Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
If anything the away game at Forest was tactically effective. We had a perfectly good goal ruled out by VAR, missed a penalty and hit the woodwork 3 times, and had many shots saved. It certainly set the tone for the season but not in terms of tactics.
- Wilko1304
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
He was right about Forest, though. Their home record will be what keeps them up, and that day, first home game in the Prem for however many years, was huge for them.
Weirdly, it was also one of our more attacking line-ups, a real 4-3-3 with Fornals in the midfield.
Weirdly, it was also one of our more attacking line-ups, a real 4-3-3 with Fornals in the midfield.
- Believer
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
Agreed. The Palace and Leicester defeats have probably annoyed me more than any others this season.JohnnyLyall wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:00 am I feel Moyes set the tone for the season with the away game at Forest, yes we were unlucky in the end.
But going to a newly promoted team who had literally put out a team of strangers against us and telling us to weather their storm is so negative, its all very well keep mentioning the two league finishes and Cup run, but what's the point if we can't take that confidence into a game where we were heavy favourites to win.. It should have been us on the front foot imposing ourselves on them.. Not the other way around..
Probably explains why our away form has been so abysmal.. Its the way we start... Even the only win against Villa we were outplayed first half.. Won by a freak deflected goal.
As you say we approach games with an inferiority complex.. So baffling when it's against a newly promoted team just put together and teams in poor form like Palace at home for example.
We allowed teams who were on poor form to take points due to our lack of urgency. We could and should have won these games but at worst we should have got 2 draws.
This is why we need to come out the blocks next Sunday. After their point against spurs, they’ll be up for it so we need to match that from the off
Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
Believer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:51 am Agreed. The Palace and Leicester defeats have probably annoyed me more than any others this season.
We allowed teams who were on poor form to take points due to our lack of urgency. We could and should have won these games but at worst we should have got 2 draws.
This is why we need to come out the blocks next Sunday. After their point against spurs, they’ll be up for it so we need to match that from the off
These games were typical of that horrendous run, just not quite having enough week after week. It's almost worse than going down like the titanic at Brighton. Almost but not quite
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
I can see where you're coming from.
But the way I see it is that if we'd have started the game not weathering the storm we would have had thirty minutes more of those chances so 50% more chance of scoring. Why not do it from the beginning, why allow an inferior team who didn't know each other to get up a head of steam... We could have finished the match in those first thirty instead.
We lost anywa may as well have done so going for it from the start
Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!
They didn't really get up a head of steam although they edged the first half. our VAR refusal seemed to energise them at the end of the half. It's one of those games that if you played it over again ten times we'd win 9, but that's just football. Unfortunately it proved to be a pivotal gameJohnnyLyall wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:17 am I can see where you're coming from.
But the way I see it is that if we'd have started the game not weathering the storm we would have had thirty minutes more of those chances so 50% more chance of scoring. Why not do it from the beginning, why allow an inferior team who didn't know each other to get up a head of steam... We could have finished the match in those first thirty instead.
We lost anywa may as well have done so going for it from the start