✍ Tomas Soucek

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MB
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by MB »

Whufc06 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:36 pm Of course on paper that is true but it could be that by having a more press resistant and progressive CM instead the forward players will receive the ball in better areas and be more of a goal threat themselves. There's no certainty either way but it's definitely the time to explore that possibility IMO
And you aren’t alone in that thought. I just think there are other ways to solve the issue and that Soucek isn’t as bad or as big a problem as is made out. Our whole midfield is not functioning as it should and putting that at the feet (…) of Soucek is an over simplistic approach IMO.

Everyone is looking for simple answers to what are quite a complex set of issues. Moyes is more ruthless than some think and I don’t think he’d hesitate to axe Soucek if he thought the net sum would be a gain.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

MB wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:32 pm But they are all less of a goal threat and worse in the air. Bring in one of those types and we’ll lack in those categories instead.

Solve one problem, create another.
We shoukdnt be relying on Soucek to be a goal threat. We should be evolving a long way from that. What other top half team plays a defensive midfielder because they occasionally get on the end of a cross or knockdown in the box?
We have a plethora of attacking players to be goal threats. We just need to ensure we have better players behind them to allow us to play more expansive, less risk averse football to create chances for them.

Plenty of players on that list have the same defensive impact qs Soucek but are much better on the offensive side of the ball. They might not score as many, but being part of a successful attacking unit is not just about you being able to score. It is qbout your effectiveness in qn overall attacking unit.

It is all academic anyway. Moyes is not going to drop Soucek any time soon. Absolutely no way
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

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But that’s it CH, unless we materially change the way we play then it is moot. Dropping Neves in for Soucek doesn’t necessarily improve us without other adjustments.

I don’t disagree btw, I just think it is a much harder problem than swap A for B.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by D C »

Whufc06 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:36 pm Of course on paper that is true but it could be that by having a more press resistant and progressive CM instead the forward players will receive the ball in better areas and be more of a goal threat themselves. There's no certainty either way but it's definitely the time to explore that possibility IMO
Agree with this. I think we overrate Soucek’s goalscoring anyway, 6 in 51 apps last season isn’t particularly impressive even for a DM. I understand people arguing for Soucek’s inclusion based on defensive aspects but not at all for his goal threat especially when he’s clearly a detriment to some of our attacking play/build up
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by MB »

But I think threat is the operative word. Antonio drifts wide, Scamacca drops deep so no Soucek means no one occupying the opposition centre halves at times. Unlikely we see Bowen and Cornet on the pitch together so at best one wide player is cutting into the box.

He isn’t irreplaceable by any means, but it requires a big tactic shift if you replace him with a passer.

To repeat, I’m not against that tactical shift but do you think we’ll see it from Moyes? If the answer to that is no, then you need to ask a different question which is how do we get the best out of what he offers as we aren’t currently?
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by D C »

Good point MB and I agree that Moyes won’t drop Soucek. Maybe the answer is him being given more freedom to make runs and Paqueta dropping deeper at times as many are suggesting he needs. Two birds with one stone maybe
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by stu1 »

Whilst Soucek might be poor at passing, it is not his fault many of his team mates now seem unable to compete a 10 yard pass, including ‘ballers’ like Fornals and Paqueta.

As a result additional pressure is put on Soucek, however that is slightly unfair. Personally I’d play Downes instead, but other players who are meant be more competent at passing need to take responsibility. Soucek’s game has never been about passing and it’s wrong to blame our overall teams poor play on him when in reality we know his limitations.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Burnley Hammer »

I still say he's making plenty of runs into the box. Like Bowen, he's just being watched a lot more now by the opposition who know all about his strengths and weaknesses. You always have the element of surprise in your first season which is why you always get these one season wonders.

For anyone who likes those expected goals stats... at an individual level, Soucek has the highest expected goals stat in the squad currently for this season.

His attempts at goal per 90 mins stat is 1.6 - same as Antonio.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by YorksHammer »

stu1 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:12 am Whilst Soucek might be poor at passing, it is not his fault many of his team mates now seem unable to compete a 10 yard pass, including ‘ballers’ like Fornals and Paqueta.
I think that's highly unfair on Paqueta, a man who has attempted 26 short passes and completed 25 of them, and attempted 16 medium passes and completed 15 of them (https://fbref.com/en/squads/7c21e445/We ... ited-Stats)

Fornals' stats are definitely down this season, but there's one key point that I think gets missed when just assessing his pure passing stats and that's that he's in our top 3 for progressive passes per 90 minutes. Which suggests that, while yes he's not necessarily completing those passes at 85% or higher which we would like to see, he is at least trying to get the ball forward more often than not. Those numbers have a really complicated set of criteria - it's to do with the ball moving towards the opposition penalty box by 10 yards or more compared to the six passes previous to it or any completed pass into the penalty area - but importantly discount long passes from the defensive 40% of the pitch, so doesn't count (for example) defensive hoofs that land on a player's head from the back.

As far as Soucek goes, his strengths have outweighed his weaknesses for a long time. Are those strengths still outweighing his weaknesses? That's the question that needs an answer, and to be honest I'm not sure it's definitive.

Personally with the way things line up, with Soucek tending right and Rice tending left across the middle of the pitch, I'd be tempted to take out our central attacking midfielder and play a deeper player in the holding role. It could be Downes. Or what we could do is pull Rice into that deeper role behind a two of Soucek and Paqueta, which I think would play into all three of their best roles for us.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Panoramix »

Czech newspapers are monitoring the mood and opinions on fan sites
Google translate:
https://isport-blesk-cz.translate.goog/ ... r_pto=wapp
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Burnley Hammer »

Either it's translated badly or they're taking on board some rather extreme fan comments!

"The 28-year-old scored against Tottenham in the season, but his overall work in the midfield does not convince the fans. "The bitch needs to be put down quickly. The time is coming for Flynn Downes to jump into the team,"
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by CubanHammer »

Burnley Hammer wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:26 pm Either it's translated badly or they're taking on board some rather extreme fan comments!

"The 28-year-old scored against Tottenham in the season, but his overall work in the midfield does not convince the fans. "The bitch needs to be put down quickly. The time is coming for Flynn Downes to jump into the team,"
The original quote in the article reads: "Souček needs to be benched". Nothing about putting him down or even calling him a bitch. I don't understand why did google translate it so badly.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by thamesideiron »

Far as I can see Every Irons Player..and I think I'm Right in Every,has come in for criticism back end of last year,start of this one.
Tomas is just one of them...
The TEAM is not Firing..at some point everyone gets Flak,even our new guys having played 3/4 games are getting it...that's footie
I spose.

Tomas' work rate,covering,important clearances etc is still up there,his being criticised does remind me of some of the stuff Nobes
could get from some of us now and again,so much work is done off the ball,goes unnoticed at times.

But in saying that...with the Squad we have now,to me he isn't a guaranteed starter anymore,which 12 months or so ago he was,
practically first name on team sheet for most of us,him and Dec were the nucleus of the side.
Think Moyes would like to keep that,and is trying to get us going again with those 2 Central to it.

Shame cos that's very nearly the perfect MF one stays one goes at different times...with a Playmaker in the middle of them...
where we have a choice of about 17 now... :lol:

Side note...think some of the Flak Vlad is getting is a little unfair....you can't fault eithers efforts,we just aint clicking at moment,
I don't think we're to far off TBH...
Just need one good game Spanking someone and we'll be up and running.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by stu1 »

YorksHammer wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:16 am I think that's highly unfair on Paqueta, a man who has attempted 26 short passes and completed 25 of them, and attempted 16 medium passes and completed 15 of them (https://fbref.com/en/squads/7c21e445/We ... ited-Stats)

Fornals' stats are definitely down this season, but there's one key point that I think gets missed when just assessing his pure passing stats and that's that he's in our top 3 for progressive passes per 90 minutes. Which suggests that, while yes he's not necessarily completing those passes at 85% or higher which we would like to see, he is at least trying to get the ball forward more often than not. Those numbers have a really complicated set of criteria - it's to do with the ball moving towards the opposition penalty box by 10 yards or more compared to the six passes previous to it or any completed pass into the penalty area - but importantly discount long passes from the defensive 40% of the pitch, so doesn't count (for example) defensive hoofs that land on a player's head from the back.

As far as Soucek goes, his strengths have outweighed his weaknesses for a long time. Are those strengths still outweighing his weaknesses? That's the question that needs an answer, and to be honest I'm not sure it's definitive.

Personally with the way things line up, with Soucek tending right and Rice tending left across the middle of the pitch, I'd be tempted to take out our central attacking midfielder and play a deeper player in the holding role. It could be Downes. Or what we could do is pull Rice into that deeper role behind a two of Soucek and Paqueta, which I think would play into all three of their best roles for us.
The problem with passing stats like those mentioned is that a pass can be successful but still poor. So many times in our build up play the pass is played slightly behind the recipient, or sells them slightly short, or it’s the wrong pass etc.

I doubt anyone watching our games would say the passing of our midfield 5 has been of a good quality.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Colours never run »

I'm usually a big advocate of Souceks but even I am close to wanting him benched next time round if he produces another piss poor performance. I really wanted to see a big reaction from him after Downes excellent Euro performance but instead played poorly.

Yet another one of our dependable starter's us struggling to regain consistent form and his position is now under serious threat.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by SammyTheHammer »

YorksHammer wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:16 am
Personally with the way things line up, with Soucek tending right and Rice tending left across the middle of the pitch, I'd be tempted to take out our central attacking midfielder and play a deeper player in the holding role. It could be Downes. Or what we could do is pull Rice into that deeper role behind a two of Soucek and Paqueta, which I think would play into all three of their best roles for us.
Bingo. I think Rice is a fantastic player but better suited playing deeper rather than the way Moyes is currently utilizing him as a "box to box" type.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Burnley Hammer »

Rice is currently one our higher ranking players when it comes to progressive ball carrying and key passes. Soucek may be a bigger threat in the penalty area but between the halfway line and the penalty area, Rice is by far the more useful player. I have nothing against Rice staying back and being the world class defensive midfielder that he is - but I don't want to see Soucek further forward trying to play the role that Rice currently has and linking up play.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by MB »

Burnley Hammer wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:41 pm Rice is currently one our higher ranking players when it comes to progressive ball carrying and key passes. Soucek may be a bigger threat in the penalty area but between the halfway line and the penalty area, Rice is by far the more useful player. I have nothing against Rice staying back and being the world class defensive midfielder that he is - but I don't want to see Soucek further forward trying to play the role that Rice currently has and linking up play.
Move the line of engagement 10 yards forward, play Paqueta or Fornals alongside and we’d be fine.

Nothing to stop Rice carrying the ball still from time to time, he’ll just have time and someone to offload to before carrying it down a blind alley. I don’t think anyone expects him to be shackled like he is for England; just “restrained”.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Colours never run »

Both Rice and Soucek need to just concentrate on predominantly protecting the backline expertly and rarely go forward unless we're on the up and can smell blood in a game. Because if they both just sat marshalling both the middle third and defensive third, I'm confident we would then dominate possession by continually winning the ball back to then play it to the players who really should be breaking those lines higher up the pitch knowing what they're doing in that final third. I don't want to see them 2 get beyond the centre circle, leave that to those that are much better equipped. That doesn't mean they both cannot still join in every set piece as they can and we will always enjoy that attacking threat they both possess at set pieces but haring forward with the ball or trying to assist others? Nah, not for me. Stick to what you're both outstanding at and that's breaking up play, winning the ball back before giving it to others. And when they both do pretty much just that, instead of occasionally going walkabouts doing their own thing, it helps free up an additional space from the midfield that doesn't need to be there. Which is why my logic keeps bringing me back to us going back to the tried and trusted 4231.

But we need to be super disciplined like we once were to achieve it and that crucially means these 2 units sit and do just the Defensive Midfield duties. Box-to-box Midfielders, they both definitely ain't. So stop being something they're not and let's get back to what we are so good at. Then the attacking players will once again flourish once we keep winning the ball back on a very regular basis including the likes of Paqueta, Fornals, Benrahma, Bowen, Antonio, Scamacca. It'll also mean getting our solidity back too with a flat back 4 and not a flimsy 3/5.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by MB »

That was fine with Lingard in front of them CNR, but neither Rice nor Soucek are good enough passers for that to work (which is why it didn’t last season…). Rice is fine for playing pat-a-cake, but he is hardly dynamic on the ball.
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