✍ Welcome Tomas Soucek

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Crouchend_Hammer
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

happydaystoytown wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:43 pm You defend Masuaku to the hilt and then make a statement like this, about one of our most reliable and effective performers in the last 2 seasons..........really? :thumbdn:
What bit isn't true?
He has bene great for us, no question and i like him a lot.
However, he isn't much help if we have the ball as he isn't sufficiently adept to move it up the field. All the opposition have to do is close Rice down and that is our midfield neutralised.
Other teams have realised his strengths now and are able to nullify them.
If we want to continue to play in the same way bypassing the midfield and playing crosses, then fine, but when we need to play through the middle he can't help us
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Wilko1304 »

He's doing more defensive work, covering a bigger space than most central midfielders as he sits in a two, and has to carry players like Benrahma.

Much bigger issues about playing through the middle
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Aztec Hammer
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Aztec Hammer »

He's a passenger. Fatigue almost certainly isn't helping but he is being exposed without the goals. He arrives at the play two seconds after it has happened. The most shocking development is that he is not even getting off the ground to impact the game in the air whilst his ability on the floor evades him. Losing headers to smaller players routinely.

I can understand there being less goals because he doesn't play as far up as often. But not being able to do the basics that he managed last season has nothing to do with Rice being more box-to-box.

He and Coufal were much better last season. They need to find those levels again if we are to salvage our season and achieve our goals.
Crouchend_Hammer
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

Wilko1304 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:38 pm He's doing more defensive work, covering a bigger space than most central midfielders as he sits in a two, and has to carry players like Benrahma.

Much bigger issues about playing through the middle
His defensive positioning isn't very good. You rarely see him tracking midfield runners and he gets caught in no-mans land a lot

At the moment i would start other players ahead of him at CM. Kral, Fornals.
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Ironing Board
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Ironing Board »

To be honest, we same to be having more trouble down our flanks at the moment. Teams are trying to play around Rice and Soucek rather than play through them, I think. Some of the criticism is a bit over the top.

We could maybe get around some of this by going 4-1-4-1.

Soucek sitting and perhaps Rice and Vlasic/Lanzini in the middle. You can then play Fornals out left and Bowen wide right. Not sure how tricky it would be to pull this off, and it may nullify Bowen, who is our main threat at the moment.
Last edited by Ironing Board on Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daytonahammer
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Daytonahammer »

Occam's razor lads......occam's razor.
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Cuenca 'ammer
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

won 5 aerial duels more than Dawson and Zouma who both had 3

2 interceptions Dawson and Zouma 1 each

yep, he's most definitely off the pace passing and scoring.

couple of games though he was unlucky not to score.

as Wilko says he's not the complete problem.

if we want to continue crossing the ball, Antonio needs to win more headers but he's not that tall and doesn't win loads of aerial duels.

19 crosses in total 4 accurate. this trend has been going on for weeks, I remember a while back posting something similar.

were I the manager, which thankfully I ain't, :crylol: I'd be looking at something else.

not sure if it means we average 22 crosses a game but it says 22 and 5% effective.

maybe someone who uses the stats more than me could tell me if that's correct.
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Ironing Board
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Ironing Board »

The counterpoint is we scored from a cross! Didn’t Soucek play a key role here too by holding off one of their defenders, making the space for Dawson?
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

Ironing Board wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:21 pm The counterpoint is we scored from a cross! Didn’t Soucek play a key role here too by holding off one of their defenders, making the space for Dawson?
I don't know if the stats people include corners and free kicks as crosses, I've really no idea.

I wouldn't per se, because as a set piece we get players into those areas who wouldn't normally be there in "open play." but as I say, I really have no idea.
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Ironing Board »

Cuenca 'ammer wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:31 pm I don't know if the stats people include corners and free kicks as crosses, I've really no idea.

I wouldn't per se, because as a set piece we get players into those areas who wouldn't normally be there in "open play." but as I say, I really have no idea.
Yeah, I get what you mean. But it was a cross :wink:

Someone made a good point about using crossing as it stops is getting exposed on the break. Seems a smart way to play, though it does get a bit annoying at times.
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happydaystoytown
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by happydaystoytown »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:33 pm What bit isn't true?
He has bene great for us, no question and i like him a lot.
However, he isn't much help if we have the ball as he isn't sufficiently adept to move it up the field. All the opposition have to do is close Rice down and that is our midfield neutralised.
Other teams have realised his strengths now and are able to nullify them.
If we want to continue to play in the same way bypassing the midfield and playing crosses, then fine, but when we need to play through the middle he can't help us
So you think, "We might as well play with 10 men", "awful footballer" and "he is so limited" is a fair summation of a player, that's been integral to any success we've had in the last couple of seasons?

And yet, you constantly defend a fringe player who is an absolute liability, dangerously loose in possession and offering very little in attack.

Soucek has a role and doesn't catch the eye if he's not scoring. He isn't a ball playing midfielder, he wasn't last season either, did you slate him then!

He's been worked into the ground this season, with hardly a break, he looks tired.

Who would you drop him for? I assume you would get rid of this passenger at the end of the season too!!
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

happydaystoytown wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:14 pm

So you think, "We might as well play with 10 men", "awful footballer" and "he is so limited" is a fair summation of a player, that's been integral to any success we've had in the last couple of seasons?

And yet, you constantly defend a fringe player who is an absolute liability, dangerously loose in possession and offering very little in attack.

Soucek has a role and doesn't catch the eye if he's not scoring. He isn't a ball playing midfielder, he wasn't last season either, did you slate him then!

He's been worked into the ground this season, with hardly a break, he looks tired.

Who would you drop him for? I assume you would get rid of this passenger at the end of the season too!!
i didn't say we might as well play with ten men. I said 'sometimes it is like having 10 men when we are attacking'. Which it is

I didn't say he was an awful footballer or that 'he is so limited'. I said he 'hinders our ability to play' (meaning playing possesion football through the middle). which he does

He has been a key part of our success, but that way of playing isn't working as effectively any more, so what has happened in the past is not hugely relevant. If we need to change our style now and again to push on, he isn't the best option IMHO

I would not get rid of him, far from it - but there are matches and periods of matches where playing other players would be a better option - like Kral, Noble< lanzini or Fornals in the centre. Personally i would like us to sign a differnet type of midfielder that we can use instead of him on occassions when we will have lots of possession.

As for Masuaka, he may be loose in possession (I don't have a problem with that as prefer players to risk things than play safe), but he isn't 'an asbolute liability'. We do not concede any more goals when he is playing LB compared to when he isn't, and he is very rarely personally responsible for any goals we concede. Unless you can provide some examples of course
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by upton o'good »

DaveWHU1964 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:40 pm .... knackered due to being overplayed. That's how I'd have finished your sentence.

Our ability to attack was superb when he had energy. He contributed vastly to our attacking presence for a long time. He's not a defence splitting passer like Trev. But he's a sniffer in the box - he has the knack of being where he needs to be when a chance comes. Well, at least he had that knack pre his now-knackered present. In addition, his presence and known danger to the opposition meant our other players got more space and more confusion was caused in opposition defences. His lack of passing skills didn't diminish us - we had other players could do that. Instead, his attributes, not common in his team mates made him complete our attacking jigsaw.
Which is fine if Rice is holding and Soucek moves fwd.. but this season Rice is often the more advanced of the two. This may be to keep Rice happy, but not sure it is working. And it means replacing Soucek with somenone who is better in deep midfield.
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by happydaystoytown »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:42 pm We might as well play with 10 men.
Lovely bloke, good stamina but an awful footballer


We cannot play football through the middle because he is so limited and he is not very good at screening the defence either
Your post in full and unabridged!

Soucek is the least of our problems and certainly not as you describe him, he deserves more credit/respect than he's getting.

Bigger problems in cover for him, Rice, Ogbonna and Antonio.

Biggest problems at full back. Nothing we don't all know!
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Phil S
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Phil S »

just saw this on twitter

Tomáš Souček has played 110 games in all competitions since February 2020.
How does that compare with the likes of Fornals, Cress and Antonio?
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Het-Field »

Phil S wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:49 pm just saw this on twitter

Tomáš Souček has played 110 games in all competitions since February 2020.
How does that compare with the likes of Fornals, Cress and Antonio?
And IIRC he had an injury in there which was fairly serious. He has been a machine in terms of his stamina.
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by Wilko1304 »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:00 pm His defensive positioning isn't very good. You rarely see him tracking midfield runners and he gets caught in no-mans land a lot

At the moment i would start other players ahead of him at CM. Kral, Fornals.
I just think you're very wrong. Even taking it without argument, we've seen the midfield struggle when one of the more attacking options is part of the two, whilst Kral would be one hell of a choice to make based on not just the lack of trust so far, but the woeful Kidderminster performance.

For me, he gets a lot of criticism because he lacks grace. Quite funny to be on this side of the discussion when I remember recently disagreeing about the effectiveness of Sissoko.
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by The Old Man of Storr »

I keep reading he's ' burned out ' ' knackered ' etc -

How much rest does a knackered player need ?

A week ?

Two weeks do ?

What about missing the Wolves and Southampton game - send him on a bit of R&R somewhere .

Send Antonio and Rice along too .

It's only two games .

Anyone else tired ?
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by BigFatSam »

The Old Man of Storr wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:25 pm I keep reading he's ' burned out ' ' knackered ' etc -

How much rest does a knackered player need ?

A week ?

Two weeks do ?

What about missing the Wolves and Southampton game - send him on a bit of R&R somewhere .

Send Antonio and Rice along too .

It's only two games .

Anyone else tired ?
I am, can I go?
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Re: Welcome Tomas Soucek

Post by DublinDave »

Soucek's natural game has been affected by the role he has been required to play this season, (be Declan Rice), his aerial duels won, defensive work etc are still there to be seen but his attacking threat coming from deep have been stymied to accommodate Rice...
It's a double edged sword, Tomas is looking for a new contract, (circa 100k pw by reports), but we, or any other club won't pay that for a guy doing a reasonable, but not outstanding job as a defensive midfielder...
To keep Rice happy, we are giving him free reign to try to be the box to box goal scoring midfielder that Soucek already is but is not allowed to be in our new system.
Soucek is better in the box to box role & Rice is far better at being a defensive midfielder. (Imho).
I don't think Soucek is tired, just p!ssed off that his golden goose contract could be toast, without the goals & late runs into the box he's just an ok DM & they are 10 a penny. I'd be p!ssed off too if I were him...
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