✍ Tomas Soucek

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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Colours never run »

Rice definitely is, his passing both short and long is usually top draw. Soucek no but he doesn't need to be as there's others like Rice who can. And we know it works because it worked so well last season during a lot of the great work we did up until last December and throughout our European campaign. And Lingard wasn't anywhere to be seen.

We have the array of attacking talent, they just need to be best utilised again in this specific West Ham side and the strong foundations we know have worked so well for us. I think there's almost been too much of an obsession looking for a quality plan B or C that we've actually taken our eye off the ball remembering what made our Team so great to begin with. We can revisit the other plans once we get a real foothold in the League again bit to achieve that now, I feel we have to go back to the 4231 and for the players to be as disciplined as they once were and not do what both Rice and Soucek have been guilty of more recently and that's being these box to box player's during open play they aint. It leaves us too exposed against quality opposition. And if it wasn't Soucek performing that role due to continued poor form, then I can also see Downes slotting in seamlessly in that role alongside Rice instead. The discipline though within the Team shaoe and structure must return for it to work as well as it once did.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by hammer1975 »

We still seem overly focused on ‘passing’ being the main cause of our issues and Soucek’s weakness at it being one of the specific key issues. Whilst I don’t think he should be a nailed on starter and he’s clearly never going to be like Xavi there is a hugely contributing issue to our ills (imo). I’ve been watching a bit of football back and I’ll tell you that the movement around Soucek to give him simple options to pass to has utterly dried up compared to what it was. We are so static off the ball.

Not just Rice but our centre backs, and wide midfielders rarely make angles for him to play around the press in a simple way. It’s hugely noticeable to even someone who has as little understanding of tactics as me.

I blame Ralph Hassenhutl a bit tbh - he seemed to pioneer the high press on Declan and Soucek and now pretty much every team does it against us. If we could somehow have enough movement to play around that high press though ……
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by funky chicken »

Tomas Soucek made five interceptions, the same number as the entire Fulham team.

https://twitter.com/jontycolman/status/ ... W_wzleiow
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Wilko1304 »

hammer1975 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:05 pm We still seem overly focused on ‘passing’ being the main cause of our issues and Soucek’s weakness at it being one of the specific key issues. Whilst I don’t think he should be a nailed on starter and he’s clearly never going to be like Xavi there is a hugely contributing issue to our ills (imo). I’ve been watching a bit of football back and I’ll tell you that the movement around Soucek to give him simple options to pass to has utterly dried up compared to what it was. We are so static off the ball.

Not just Rice but our centre backs, and wide midfielders rarely make angles for him to play around the press in a simple way. It’s hugely noticeable to even someone who has as little understanding of tactics as me.
Jack would agree with this, I think. My feeling is that not only are we poor with it, but the movement is shocking. Zouma, Soucek and Rice have all been very guilty of giving the ball and standing still. Downes was a breath of fresh air cos he did the thing Nobes always did, moved, showed and asked for the ball. So far, there has been a lot of building play where the player seems annoyed he has the ball and passes so that he doesn't have it, rather than with ideas in mind or desire to move and help his teammate.

Soucek is going to suffer most notably, he's not particularly smooth in his play. I do feel for Tommy, I don't think the manager has done much to help. And a lot of his gritty, dogsbody contributions go ignored cos he mishit a pass.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by hammer1975 »

Agree Wilko, thought he was decent today.

Saying that - I’d play Downes against Southampton. Hassenthutl had our centre midfield’s number for all three games last season and I think Downes would throw a spanner in that and create an ability to play through their press. I’d then bring Soucek back for Liverpool.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Wilko1304 »

hammer1975 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:02 pm Agree Wilko, thought he was decent today.

Saying that - I’d play Downes against Southampton. Hassenthutl had our centre midfield’s number for all three games last season and I think Downes would throw a spanner in that and create an ability to play through their press. I’d then bring Soucek back for Liverpool.
I just hope he tries something to manage it, cos we have been bullied by them a few times and need to do something different to get the better of it. Whether it's Downes in, a 4-3-3 with Paqueta deeper, or getting Paq and Fornals in closer to Rice.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Billydinho »

funky chicken wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:53 pm Tomas Soucek made five interceptions, the same number as the entire Fulham team.

https://twitter.com/jontycolman/status/ ... W_wzleiow
Great. How many passes did he complete?
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Chrissieboy »

As a few are saying, I think Soucek has been mismanaged and i soften overplayed. I don't think Downes will come in versus Southampton but it would be a sound idea.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by fjthegrey »

For me he's still a clear weak link when we're knocking the ball around, but with Paqueta and Rice alongside him, and more importantly Kehrer at right back (who is vastly better with the ball under pressure than any right back we've had in years), Soucek's technical deficiencies aren't quite so glaring. A simple 5 yard pass backwards to the right back isn't quite so negative now we have a right back who can consistently pass the ball forward.

He hasn't really been much of a threat the last few games either but his defensive play has been high level.

I still think we can upgrade mind. And I wouldn't be handing him any bumper 5 year contract either. Add a year or two to whatever deal he's on with a moderate increase. If our backroom team were able to identify Scamacca and Paqueta as realistic targets, we are surely able to upgrade Soucek with an equally exceptional player.

He's done a decent job the last few weeks however. Definitely helped giving him a rest and being surrounded by superior players.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by PF. »

Billydinho wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:44 am Great. How many passes did he complete?
https://optaplayerstats.statsperform.co ... ch-summary

49 apparently.

I've posted on this thread before (I think) but what Soucek does brilliantly is close forward passing lanes. This wouldn't show on a statistics website (I think) as it obviously isn't an interception or tackle.

He's definitely limited in terms of passing range but I'd have him right up there in the top echelons of the premier league for positioning when defending.

IMO (which granted, doesn't mean ****), Soucek is a vital cog in how we set ourselves up defensively. Of course he can be upgraded, but then, so can everyone else (apart from Daws!).
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

fjthegrey wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:50 am For me he's still a clear weak link when we're knocking the ball around, but with Paqueta and Rice alongside him, and more importantly Kehrer at right back (who is vastly better with the ball under pressure than any right back we've had in years), Soucek's technical deficiencies aren't quite so glaring. A simple 5 yard pass backwards to the right back isn't quite so negative now we have a right back who can consistently pass the ball forward.

He hasn't really been much of a threat the last few games either but his defensive play has been high level.

I still think we can upgrade mind. And I wouldn't be handing him any bumper 5 year contract either. Add a year or two to whatever deal he's on with a moderate increase. If our backroom team were able to identify Scamacca and Paqueta as realistic targets, we are surely able to upgrade Soucek with an equally exceptional player.

He's done a decent job the last few weeks however. Definitely helped giving him a rest and being surrounded by superior players.
This is a very good point
Now we have better passers in the team, there is more merit to playing Soucek as his weaknesses are not so detrimental to the team

I don't really think we need him to launch himself into the opposition box much any more so if he does play he can just sit back and break up play
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Wilko1304 »

Billydinho wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:44 am Great. How many passes did he complete?
82%. Kehrer 84%, Bowen 83%, Fornals 82%. Pass accuracy stats are quite flawed, but that's what we got. So he did fine, without being good, with the ball and contributed very well in defence.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Aztec Hammer »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:47 am This is a very good point
Now we have better passers in the team, there is more merit to playing Soucek as his weaknesses are not so detrimental to the team

I don't really think we need him to launch himself into the opposition box much any more so if he does play he can just sit back and break up play
Thing about this is I have a decent degree of confidence that Flynn Downes can do those things you mention better and be press-resistant and pass the ball too.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by MB »

Maybe he can, maybe he cannot (at a premier league level) AH. Let’s see him pass the tests first.

Soucek is fine in the meantime and I agree better players around him help cover his weaknesses while he covers the weaknesses of the team.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Burnley Hammer »

I'm happy with Soucek as a starter in general... I do agree though in thinking Southampton may suit Downes more. Worst thing to do when targeted with a high press is dwell on the ball for too long. Downes likes to keep the ball moving quickly (and simply) and I feel that may help us against them. Otherwise I see them forcing us into a catalogue of errors.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Aztec Hammer »

MB wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:01 pm Maybe he can, maybe he cannot (at a premier league level) AH. Let’s see him pass the tests first.

Soucek is fine in the meantime and I agree better players around him help cover his weaknesses while he covers the weaknesses of the team.
He has to first be allowed to sit the test!

On a serious note though, I very much like the look of Downes from the appearances so far. He looks better than advertised.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

Aztec Hammer wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:39 pm He has to first be allowed to sit the test!

On a serious note though, I very much like the look of Downes from the appearances so far. He looks better than advertised.
don't disagree. however, I think he was up there among the best in the Fizzy, which is a much better league than a lot give it credit for.

there's some good players down there. and it's a "person's league" (I wanted to say "men's league" but was afraid of the flack I'd get. :crylol: - however I think only men play in it so I might squeeze pass the WOKE police) and I think that a majority of players who make the team of the season or are in the discussion, are pretty good players I would think.

however, agree with your post, he's been above where I thought he would be, based on the few appearances he's made.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Up the Junction »

Our central midfield pairing leading the metrics for 'the other 14'...


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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Oldun »

I feel it’s not the tackles and interceptions that Tomas does ,which had always been good,it’s what he does with it is the problem,some of his passing is appalling.
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Re: ✍ Tomas Soucek

Post by Clacton-ammer »

The Soucek debate is an interesting one on how we feel we may be able to develop a more posession based playing style, against keeping it tighter and break at pace. No doubting his abilities in breaking up play, gives everything to the shirt and in a big game Moyes will start him, and that he comes across a really top bloke, how can you not like Soucek?!?!. Possibly to get the best out of Paqueta we need more of the ball, and to use the ball better than we do at times.

Downes may well be the answer alongside Rice, as long as his confidence picks up and stops worrying about keep the ball,keep the ball, so will go sideways or back when he has had more than a few times an opportunity to play more offensively, a killer ball, but possibly has that fear of must not lose the ball - only time will tell as confidence builds he can pick those passes out.

Soucek offers so much as the stats tell us, and maybe as we are just finding some form it would be sensible to stay as we are and when the table looks a little better try that more offensive play against the sides around and below us with Downes??
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