TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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mumbles87
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by mumbles87 »

Plashet Grove Pete wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:42 pm Yeah, nothing to do with the RMT the innocent little scamps.

So misunderstood - still, there's alway an apologist to defend their objectionable behaviour.
And always a smart arse to be anti union

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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by -DL- »

Plashet Grove Pete wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:42 pm Yeah, nothing to do with the RMT the innocent little scamps.

So misunderstood - still, there's alway an apologist to defend their objectionable behaviour.
Turn it in mate. This isn't drivers, it's the day to day public facing minions that are not particularly well paid, and they're being shafted by their employers.

I challenge you to call me an apologist when a multi-million quid profit making organisation are butt-****ing their staff and trying to erode their pensions, pay, working rights, and work/life balance.

You up there on your high - horse, you count yourself lucky that you must be in a job where your employer isn't trying to shaft you.

I generally never stick up for rail strikers, especially when it is drivers - but on this occasion, you're someone else that's been taken in by the press, and the **** memes on social media claiming this strike is about drivers on 70k a year - it's not. It's those down at the very bottom. if you are happy to see them shatted on from a great height, and call people apologists for defending them using their right to take industrial action, then that makes you a bit of a twunt.

What IS objectionable, are people like you that are happy to see a race to the bottom.

We're out on strike in August, because like these workers, we're about to be shafted. I'll be there standing on the picket line showing solidarity with my colleagues so we can all have an acceptable wage, acceptable conditions, and not have the stuff we already have, eroded away whilst we're trying to make an honest living supporting our families in tough times - whilst also carrying the responsibility of carrying your families from point a to point b in safety.

When your cargo is the most precious in the world - people, the people with that responsibility should be remunerated accordingly - and for years, they haven't been, and the worm is turning - and whilst we're fighting our fight, we'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the railway workers - not train drivers, not managers, but the boots on the floor workers.

If you've got an issue with that, that's your problem, and with respect, tough ****.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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-DL- wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:56 pm Turn it in mate. This isn't drivers...
Well said.

This isn't about the high earners it's about the little guy

The drivers union weren't out but any rmt driver did go out in support of those on the ground. Fair play to them.

Good luck in August
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

-DL- wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:56 pm I challenge you to call me an apologist when a multi-million quid profit making organisation are butt-****ing their staff and trying to erode their pensions, pay, working rights, and work/life balance.
On the pensions bit. The schemes (excluding the taxpayer backed BR bit) is ~11bn in deficit, add to that people are living longer and payments continue to rise. The scheme trustees took a gamble on equities (they went to about 80% on equities) and lost massively, all the unions are on the trustees panel so would have signed off on the direction of investment. Now there is a report saying its going tits up they want someone else to guarantee their members incomes.

Across the country schemes (for various reasons - often corporate greed) have gone to crap, people in those schemes have had to adjust as well as adjust to other factors. This is a mess the unions were in on but their members shouldn't have to adjust? Did the trustees not spot the disclaimer about the value of investments going down as well as up. If they get a bailout and their funds then go back up will they repay the bailout?

Defined benefit, final salary schemes are great if there is enough money but there never is. Late career promotions always screw the pot in the end unless your investment choices are incredibly good. The NUM scheme is about the only one that worked, it rode the thatcherism investment boom (irony eh) and had (to be brutally blunt) a lot of members that died early.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:00 pm This isn't about the high earners it's about the little guy
This is one of the the commission 'savaging' the scheme suggestions opposed by the unions
The Commission expresses concern that the current scheme disadvantages the lower paid. This is because the pay of lower paid employees does not rise significantly over the lifetime of their employment and they subsidise the benefits of those who achieve salary progression to higher grades. The lower paid are also less likely to be able to afford retirement before 65, take advantage of an unreduced pension at age 60 or the attractive reduction factors for retiring earlier. However, they are unable to escape the additional costs that of those arrangements because they are required to pay 40% of all scheme costs. The Commission therefore propose a new arrangement should be established on a Average Career Revalued Earnings basis, ie benefits calculated on earnings over all pensionable service rather than earnings at retirement. In such scheme each year’s earnings are revalued each year. The Commissioners recommend that revaluation should be in line with RPI to protect value. They believe a revalued average earnings scheme allocates available resources more equitably than a final pay scheme with the same joint contribution rate.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:05 pm This is one of the the commission 'savaging' the scheme suggestions opposed by the unions
Sorry the care pension plan is awful

They are trying to switch us to win

It doesn't benefit the lower paid it just takes less away from them than it does from a higher earner

Package it anyway they wish career average earnings instead of final salary does not benefit the lower paid
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by delbert »

I haven't checked my latest statement but the TfL scheme was ticking over nicely, mumbles will no doubt be up to speed on it. And to make the point political :winker: It survived Gordon Brown raiding it.........
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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delbert wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:09 pm I haven't checked my latest statement but the TfL scheme was ticking over nicely, mumbles will no doubt be up to speed on it. And to make the point political :winker: It survived Gordon Brown raiding it.........
This was reported back by the independent review

The tfl pension fund is well funded and on steady finiaical footing (what the gov keep saying it needs to be) and represents good value for the employee as they don't have access to other things so it's a way of getting talent into tfl and if they didnt get it would need things like Private health care and other bits that aren't on offer

The pension costs that tfl are greatly reduced next year anyways as the pension lent them £150 million that they will now pay back this year and the payments will drop

However this doesn't get reported .... They claim the payments to be X amount (including the repayment of that loan)
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by delbert »

I'm not up with all the ins and outs mate, all I do know is it's a damned sight better than the crappy Civil Service one I was in after it.........
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:01 pm On the pensions bit. The schemes (excluding the taxpayer backed BR bit) is ~11bn in deficit, add to that people are living longer and payments continue to rise. The scheme trustees took a gamble on equities (they went to about 80% on equities) and lost massively, all the unions are on the trustees panel so would have signed off on the direction of investment. Now there is a report saying its going tits up they want someone else to guarantee their members incomes.

Across the country schemes (for various reasons - often corporate greed) have gone to crap, people in those schemes have had to adjust as well as adjust to other factors. This is a mess the unions were in on but their members shouldn't have to adjust? Did the trustees not spot the disclaimer about the value of investments going down as well as up. If they get a bailout and their funds then go back up will they repay the bailout?

Defined benefit, final salary schemes are great if there is enough money but there never is. Late career promotions always screw the pot in the end unless your investment choices are incredibly good. The NUM scheme is about the only one that worked, it rode the thatcherism investment boom (irony eh) and had (to be brutally blunt) a lot of members that died early.
Why should the members adjust? What have they done wrong? We're not in a final salary pension scheme where I work - and to my limited knowledge on pensions, they've been done away with for new employees across many sectors a long time ago - but this isn't just about pensions, is it?

Yeah but pensions, when it many other aspects, pay, conditions, redundancies - things that affect the here and now, which are the biggest issue for workers right now.

People that have had a working life, or are nearing the end of it don't seem to give a f*** what's happening to workers now - workers that keep the country ticking across the board.

It's just nasty unions.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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delbert wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:30 pm I'm not up with all the ins and outs mate, all I do know is it's a damned sight better than the crappy Civil Service one I was in after it.........
That's because the company / government were never allowed their hands on it and it was / is run by a seperate committee

Shares in apple, Microsoft.. Tesla at the right times

The gov want it eroded away for one simple reason, because it's better than others so what's cheaper.. getting a good pension removed or improving the rubbish ones?
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:08 pm Sorry the care pension plan is awful

They are trying to switch us to win

It doesn't benefit the lower paid it just takes less away from them than it does from a higher earner

Package it anyway they wish career average earnings instead of final salary does not benefit the lower paid
It disadvantages them less is the point
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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-DL- wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm Why should the members adjust? What have they done wrong? We're not in a final salary pension scheme where I work - and to my limited knowledge on pensions, they've been done away with for new employees across many sectors a long time ago - but this isn't just about pensions, is it?

Yeah but pensions, when it many other aspects, pay, conditions, redundancies - things that affect the here and now, which are the biggest issue for workers right now.

People that have had a working life, or are nearing the end of it don't seem to give a **** what's happening to workers now - workers that keep the country ticking across the board.

It's just nasty unions.
Way it's always been explained to me is our pension is deffered wages that have been agreed other time

Much like when a gov official goes right take away their free travel. Khan said well I can't because it was agreed instead of a pay rise at this point in whatever year. Etc etc

We sign up to that pension when we join, pay in for X amount of years and leave with a pension at the end

I joined Lu at 16, paid in since 18 when I was allowed I'm now 35 with at least 25-30 years of work left in me I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a semi decent wage in retirement

Especially when state pension is becoming so bad and the gov want us to have private pensions

Well I have one mate.. so please stop trying to take it off me I don't want to suffer in my older years
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:37 pm It disadvantages them less is the point
It's a terrible point that I can't believe you think it's a good point

So say low earner is getting a 15k pension ATM and high earner 30k

Low earner under care gets 14k and high gets 25

Oh but low earner only lost 1k

What a stupid argument
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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-DL- wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm Why should the members adjust? What have they done wrong? We're not in a final salary pension scheme where I work - and to my limited knowledge on pensions, they've been done away with for new employees across many sectors a long time ago - but this isn't just about pensions, is it?

Yeah but pensions, when it many other aspects, pay, conditions, redundancies - things that affect the here and now, which are the biggest issue for workers right now.

People that have had a working life, or are nearing the end of it don't seem to give a **** what's happening to workers now - workers that keep the country ticking across the board.

It's just nasty unions.
Because the scheme they invested in isn't worth as much as it needs due to being badly managed by in large part union trustees.

I never said it was just about pensions I merely wanted to pick up on that part as apparently it's the govt savaging it not the planks that stuck everyone's future on red.

These workers aren't all the workers though. We are supposed to think about their plight when we can't get to work due to travel chaos. Or when fares go up to pay the 7% pay rise when inflation has come back to 3 or 4%.

What exactly is happening to them that hasn't happened for generations. Working practices change, economic situations change. Inflation has gone up since the start of the year, these strikes were mooted before then yet they are now about the cost of living crisis. The unions are quite right to raise issues they have with all this but imo that's not the argument they are making, rhetoric about fat cats taking dividends and Eton toffs isn't explaining your grievances it's picking a fight.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:00 pm
What exactly is happening to them that hasn't happened for generations.
You should know the answer to this mate, you're an intelligent bloke.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:40 pm It's a terrible point that I can't believe you think it's a good point

So say low earner is getting a 15k pension ATM and high earner 30k

Low earner under care gets 14k and high gets 25

Oh but low earner only lost 1k

What a stupid argument
If there is only enough money to pay them 39k combined what's the fairest way to split it.

The problem with final salary schemes is the high earner might only have been a high earner for 5 years. His previous contributions were at a lower scale so there is no investment history to cover his higher wage.

Same applies with a big pay settlement. If they get 7% and keep a final salary DB scheme where is that extra coming from in their pension when they retire in a year or 2?
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:09 pm If there is only enough money to pay them 39k combined what's the fairest way to split it.

The problem with final salary schemes is the high earner might only have been a high earner for 5 years. His previous contributions were at a lower scale so there is no investment history to cover his higher wage.

Same applies with a big pay settlement. If they get 7% and keep a final salary DB scheme where is that extra coming from in their pension when they retire in a year or 2?
Right. Network rail have a care pension as it is

We don't we have defined benefit

However our pension pot has enough money in it , is stable and affordable

The only people who think it isn't is the Tory government, and that's a fact.

The company think it's affordable, khan thinks it's affordable

If bailey had got in he would have gone for them as Boris wants them
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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-DL- wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:04 pm You should know the answer to this mate, you're an intelligent bloke.
I'm interested. Personally I think the union case should be about climate and fuel use and 'look at the airlines' it's too early to know if the world of work has changed. But if it has changed then what's happening isn't anything new it's happened to every business that ever lost custom, to every pension scheme that had longer living members.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:13 pm Right. Network rail have a care pension as it is

We don't we have defined benefit

However our pension pot has enough money in it , is stable and affordable

The only people who think it isn't is the Tory government, and that's a fact.

The company think it's affordable, khan thinks it's affordable

If bailey had got in he would have gone for them as Boris wants them
The RPS was 11bn in deficit 2 years ago, the pensions regulator said it was 7.5bn in deficit 2 years before that. The only was it's in surplus is by using tax payer guarantees on some parts to pump up other parts that aren't guaranteed.
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