Shamima Begum can't return to UK (updated)

[westham,eggyandchips]

I think that terrorism directly leading to deaths is about as bad a crime as there is, if it’s proved that she had direct involvement in that then I think she should be spending a lot of her life in prison. But I do believe in rehabilitation and I also believe in the fact that minors are vulnerable people who should be protected where possible.

But without a trial, none of us will ever really know the extent of her crimes, which is why I think she should come back to the UK and have a trial. She should have to look in the eyes of the families who’ve been affected by her actions and explain herself. Everyone deserves a trial and she needs to atone. Also, if found guilty, I think that both the fact that she was groomed (IMO) and the fact that she has shown little to no remorse should be taken into account. There is a risk in this country of us creating more and more Shamima Begum’s if there is a way that we can use this one to stop others, we should try and find it.

I'd also say that not allowing her back into the country could act as a deterrent to others of all ages that may think they can join terrorist groups and just pop back when things don't turn out how they thought they would.

And if we did decide to let her back then I'd have her serve a minimum of 20 years behind bars with no visitors and in solitary for the duration. I know we're getting into human rights issues, but a line needs to be drawn.

[Turns to Stone]

Using the paedophile grooming example that you used. There are a fair amount of 15 year old girls that would go and meet the paedophile and realise what's gone on and make a massive issue of it because they are clued up, get their phone out and film him and report him to the police. There are also some that are not clued up and would fall prey. I suppose you have to find the side of the fence to sit on as to what category Ms Begum falls in.

I think once you start trying to figure out whether children are actually vulnerable or not, you’re playing into the hands of their groomers. I work in a school and the responsibility to act appropriately should lie with both child and adult, but the responsibility should always be far, far greater on the adult than the child. This isn’t about saying ‘she’s 15, we should let her off’. It’s about accepting that children are vulnerable and should be protected where possible.

Going back to the paedophile grooming example, would we accept a line from a 30 year-old man who said of his 15 year old victim -

I've met 15 year olds that have their head screwed on, and are more than capable of making decisions and knowing the consequences of those decisions.

[Turns to Stone]

I'd also say that not allowing her back into the country could act as a deterrent to others of all ages that may think they can join terrorist groups and just pop back when things don't turn out how they thought they would.

And if we did decide to let her back then I'd have her serve a minimum of 20 years behind bars with no visitors and in solitary for the duration. I know we're getting into human rights issues, but a line needs to be drawn.

Possibly, but then without a fair trial, how do you figure any of that out?

[Snudge]

I think once you start trying to figure out whether children are actually vulnerable or not, you’re playing into the hands of their groomers. I work in a school and the responsibility to act appropriately should lie with both child and adult, but the responsibility should always be far, far greater on the adult than the child. This isn’t about saying ‘she’s 15, we should let her off’. It’s about accepting that children are vulnerable and should be protected where possible.

Going back to the paedophile grooming example, would we accept a line from a 30 year-old man who said of his 15 year old victim -

No we wouldn't accept that line, and nor should we. I've not said that the responsibility should be passed from the adult to the child but nor should we absolve a child of all responsibility in a case like Ms Begum.

The elephant in the room is that she has a religion where in some quarters hate is preached from an early age. Not from outsiders but by the family. Brain washing. Maybe she didn't realise what she was doing was wrong because she had been conditioned from a young age that it is acceptable. But neither of us know what the case is. Our thoughts are not exactly a million miles apart, I just disagree on the grooming side, and you've used the emotive subject of paedophilia to make your point. However, I've not heard of any victims of paedophilia grooming go to a foreign land and be involved in throwing people off buildings because they do not like their sexuality or chopping people's heads off. I'm happy to be proved wrong though.

Either way, 15 or not, she had been watching propaganda before she went. She know what ISIS did and she still went. Not that I'd subject my young child to that but I'm sure she would know chopping people's heads off is wrong and would do her level best to not make the decision to go to somewhere that did this.

I think she should be brought back to The UK and tried as a juvenile. Not as an adult as she wasn't an adult when any offences took place. She's our responsibility and she should be brought back to face the courts and legal system.

I said previously, I just can't help but give a wry smile that a lot of people who advocate her coming home painting her as the victim also advocate giving the vote to children just a year older than her.

[westham,eggyandchips]

Possibly, but then without a fair trial, how do you figure any of that out?

I'm hoping she doesn't receive a fair trial though. I want a really nasty unfair trial.

[Turns to Stone]

I said previously, I just can't help but give a wry smile that a lot of people who advocate her coming home painting her as the victim also advocate giving the vote to children just a year older than her.

Are they the same people?

[Graza]

I'm hoping she doesn't receive a fair trial though. I want a really nasty unfair trial.

You would struggle to get a neutral jury for any trial IMO. There won't be many people who don't know some detail of her case and given the time that has passed you'd struggle to find people with absolutely no pre judged opinion.

Not sure of the legals but do terrorism cases always have an open court jury trial or would they have some sort of bench system? If they managed to get her tried as a minor this would complicate things further.

[The Old Man of Storr]

I think that terrorism directly leading to deaths is about as bad a crime as there is,

As opposed to being killed by a laser-guided bomb - is the terrorist more culpable than the bomber pilot , do the dead care who killed them or how they died ?

If Britain and America hadn't murdered so many Iraqis then Isis wouldn't have existed .

Yet the best we can do is point a finger at a young girl who supported the wrong side -

Germans were allowed into Britain after WW2 yet a young British citizen has to be made an example of ?

She's a bloody nuisance that's what she is - if she's allowed to come back she'll be targeted by both sides and she'll cost the country money whether she's jailed or not and I think this is what's behind the Government's current stance .

[Billydinho]

You would struggle to get a neutral jury for any trial IMO. There won't be many people who don't know some detail of her case and given the time that has passed you'd struggle to find people with absolutely no pre judged opinion.

Not sure of the legals but do terrorism cases always have an open court jury trial or would they have some sort of bench system? If they managed to get her tried as a minor this would complicate things further.

Same could be said for Derek Chauvin but that went ahead, no issue.

She needs to be brought back, tried and locked up. Syria - or wherever else she is now - shouldn't have to deal with her. She's our responsibility to punish.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

She's begging for forgiveness now ...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sham ... 55379.html

[sendô]

See if Afghanstan will take her.

[delbert]

and her ******** lawyer.......

[Etonhammer]

Its great to hear her taking about 'your country' and the problems its has with extremism !!

Now there is an irony overload !

[sendô]

Just as a quick aside - Richard Madeley is really ****ing annoying isn't he?

[Denbighammer]

r

Just as a quick aside - Richard Madeley is really ****ing annoying isn't he?

It took you this long to notice?! :lol:

[-DL-]

Convenient now how her image has gone all Westernised.

She's now a five pinter I reckon, or in Delbs world, a shandy.

[Hummer_I_mean_Hammer]

Convenient now how her image has gone all Westernised.

She's now a five pinter I reckon, or in Delbs world, a shandy.

Thing is she comes across on that video as being so at ease wherever she is.

It would be cruel to bring her back and force her into having to dress and behave all conservative like. She's even got pink nails. I mean you don't often see that in Bethnal Green, do you?

[delbert]

Convenient now how her image has gone all Westernised.

She's now a five pinter I reckon, or in Delbs world, a shandy.

Cheaper that way mate.....

[Geoff Hurts]

As opposed to being killed by a laser-guided bomb - is the terrorist more culpable than the bomber pilot , do the dead care who killed them or how they died ?

If Britain and America hadn't murdered so many Iraqis then Isis wouldn't have existed .

Yet the best we can do is point a finger at a young girl who supported the wrong side -

Germans were allowed into Britain after WW2 yet a young British citizen has to be made an example of ?

She's a bloody nuisance that's what she is - if she's allowed to come back she'll be targeted by both sides and she'll cost the country money whether she's jailed or not and I think this is what's behind the Government's current stance .

Hundreds of others that went over the wire to ISIS have been allowed back into the UK. No doubt some were combatants. Begum is the poster girl for the government to show the public that they have gone hard on those that went to ISIS. The reality is somewhat different and I agree totally with your post.

[westham,eggyandchips]

She certainly looks different without her uniform on. :shock: