The kids are all right

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Hermit_Road
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Hermit_Road »

Sadly, it's a very, very poor level and no indication of what players may be capable of at Championship, let alone Prem level. Probably why very few get a chance, again, sadly!
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by bubbles1966 »

Kermit wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 5:00 pm It's nice to see the youngsters winning some games but surely their development would be improved if they were playing in "proper" football instead of the Under 23 league. I haven't watch any U23 games since before all the Covid nonsense but the games I did see I thought the standard was about National League level. Better surely to get the lads out on loan at a decent level instead of playing against other "learners" like themselves.
Who did we loan Rice and Johnson to?
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Kermit »

bubbles1966 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 11:06 pm Who did we loan Rice and Johnson to?
We didn't need to loan Rice out did we ? He was in the first team at 18, and Johnson made his first team breakthrough and was around the squad pretty much at the same age. But Alese, to use an example is 21 and apart from the Zagreb game hasn't featured in what I'd call a "proper" game of football. Much the same as the other kids in the Under 23s. It used to be said that if a kid hadn't made his breakthrough before his 20th birthday he wasn't going to make it. Imo we need to find out if these kids are going to be the next generation of first team players.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by iLoveLasagne »

Not meaning to insult Yarmo, but him having a stormer proves that u23s is levels below. Even on here people kept asking for Okoflex to feature in recent months just because they have watched some highlights or even a full match on Youtube. I bet most just see the final scores and the u23s' league position and think the kids are all ready. When I have watched a match I can see that it does not compare with the senior game at all. In the past decade, I cannot recall a loan where the loanee completely tore it up to an extent that they made a compelling case to be tried in the first team. A lot of the hype around youth products is internally generated and even when it is more universal, it is still very much purely hype. We had Oscar Borg once coveted by MUFC. Now he has disappeared into the ether, either in Iceland or the lower echelons of the Spanish pyramid. Recent hyped player Mipo Odubeko doesn't even get mentioned anymore by our fans.

EDIT: This all sounds terribly negative. Maybe there is still something to work with. They finished 2nd so there must be. We must find the solution as to how to bridge the gap between being successful u23s to senior pros. Who decides on the loan placements etc? Perhaps we need to be more methodical in this area.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by StevePottsGoalsReel »

Kid in the no.7 shirt looked superb. Get him in the first team now!
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by YorksHammer »

Kermit wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 10:44 am We didn't need to loan Rice out did we ? He was in the first team at 18, and Johnson made his first team breakthrough and was around the squad pretty much at the same age. But Alese, to use an example is 21 and apart from the Zagreb game hasn't featured in what I'd call a "proper" game of football. Much the same as the other kids in the Under 23s. It used to be said that if a kid hadn't made his breakthrough before his 20th birthday he wasn't going to make it. Imo we need to find out if these kids are going to be the next generation of first team players.
The point is our most promising/best youth prospects of recent years haven't been loaned anywhere. I had a look elsewhere and it seems to be very rare that we have a player come through who goes out on loan more than once. Noble had two short ones in the same season, Tomkins had one short spell at Derby, even someone like Stanislas only had one short loan spell to somewhere (Southend?).

We've had a number of 'promising' players come through over the past 10-15 years who have had multiple loans and never ended up breaking through for us - the likes of Jordan Spence, Josh Cullen, Reece Oxford, Reece Burke, Elliot Lee all had multiple loan spell elsewhere and never made our first team.

That's not to suggest they would have been successful for us had they not been loaned out, but for us it seems like our best prospects end up breaking through into our first team without a loan out to another club.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by jastons »

iLoveLasagne wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:14 am Even on here people kept asking for Okoflex to feature in recent months just because they have watched some highlights or even a full match on Youtube. I bet most just see the final scores and the u23s' league position and think the kids are all ready. When I have watched a match I can see that it does not compare with the senior game at all.
A lot of the comments come from seeing first team players out of form. Antonio has had games where he has done hardly anything. Would a fully fit Okoflex do any worse than Antonio has in certain games? We don't know because he hasn't played.

Cresswell at CB v Arsenal, who is our best youth CB and why didn't he get a game instead?
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Chrissieboy »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 10:20 pm All you get on social media slagging off Moyes for not playing the entire youth team this season.

Apparently Moyes never plays youth players and will kill our academy.


Ignoring how much he brought Rice through in his first spell, brought Johnson through in this spell, as well as giving debuts to Ngakia, Cullen, Martinez, Alese, Baptiste, Ashby, Perkins, Chesters and Longelo.

God I hate social media.
You are exaggerating, don't you think? People like to see young players come thprugh but that aside we have a small and tired squad that has constantly not performed since December. Especially safter European games we have been pretty poor and Moyes has continued to use Yarmolenko, Vlasic and Masuaku to little effect. Many just questioned whether a youth player couldn't be given a game. Would a young and energetic Perkins have been worse than a tired and increasingly poor Antonio? Okoflex over Yaromolenko? Longello over Masuaku? Chesters over Vlasic? Nobody was screaming out for an Allardicio style throw the whole team under the bus game, were they? The frustration of not seeing Alese play when few CBs are fit or available or Perkins given a few more minutes was further exacerbated by the lack of signings in January.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by bubbles1966 »

Loaning players out to the lower leagues doesn't prove they can play in the PL. It might prove they can't at this particular time, but that's all.

Having a set age for breaking through is flawed thinking.

A 19 year old forward or player in a wide position has significantly higher chance of breaking in by comparison to those in more 'responsible' positions such as CB and GK, where the players need to be fully developed physically and will get slaughtered if they lack experience and make mistakes. people are more forgiving of young players like wingers.

Declan Rice was a very iffy centre half when called in to cover an injury crisis.

It also depends on who is in the first team ahead of the youngsters.

The players we have in the U23 and U18 set up need to make the most of the opportunities they are given in training and in games like Zagreb. Ordinarily, we'd get a few opportunities to see them in the league Cup and FA Cup etc - but we kept drawing PL teams for most of this year.

The Conference League will be another opportunity if we end up in it
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by iLoveLasagne »

jastons wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:39 am A lot of the comments come from seeing first team players out of form. Antonio has had games where he has done hardly anything. Would a fully fit Okoflex do any worse than Antonio has in certain games? We don't know because he hasn't played.

Cresswell at CB v Arsenal, who is our best youth CB and why didn't he get a game instead?
I used to be of the opinion that if X was playing badly then Y certainly can't do worse. But actually, I think they can. I think it is easy to get carried away. Lots believed Sears to have some sort of future with us having been a youth sensation following a debut goal. Reece Oxford had Ozil in his pocket apparently but was then made to look like the kid he was by Lukaku.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by steveyrockstar »

Kermit wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 10:44 am We didn't need to loan Rice out did we ? He was in the first team at 18, and Johnson made his first team breakthrough and was around the squad pretty much at the same age. But Alese, to use an example is 21 and apart from the Zagreb game hasn't featured in what I'd call a "proper" game of football. Much the same as the other kids in the Under 23s. It used to be said that if a kid hadn't made his breakthrough before his 20th birthday he wasn't going to make it. Imo we need to find out if these kids are going to be the next generation of first team players.
Alese has already had two failed loans to League One and League Two. In fact, when he was loaned to Cambridge in League Two, he played 2 games for them all season.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Kermit »

YorksHammer wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:30 am The point is our most promising/best youth prospects of recent years haven't been loaned anywhere. I had a look elsewhere and it seems to be very rare that we have a player come through who goes out on loan more than once. Noble had two short ones in the same season, Tomkins had one short spell at Derby, even someone like Stanislas only had one short loan spell to somewhere (Southend?).

We've had a number of 'promising' players come through over the past 10-15 years who have had multiple loans and never ended up breaking through for us - the likes of Jordan Spence, Josh Cullen, Reece Oxford, Reece Burke, Elliot Lee all had multiple loan spell elsewhere and never made our first team.

That's not to suggest they would have been successful for us had they not been loaned out, but for us it seems like our best prospects end up breaking through into our first team without a loan out to another club.
I think with respect you're missing the point. What I'm saying is that back in the day the road to the first team was Under 18s (the lot that play in the F A Youth Cup which we used to be a force in). Then they would progress to the old Football Combination where they would compete against an assortment of other hopefuls like themselves and seasoned professionals not currently in their clubs first elevens. The standard of reserve team football obviously wasn't as high as the first division but it was certainly more of a challenge than the Under 23 league. My point is that surely the likes of Alese would be betting off playing against team.

I'm certainly not saying loaning players out is going to guarantee they'll be a success. However I think it would give a better indication to assess if they are of a standard whereby they can be introduced into the first team for the occasional run out which is something we seem currently unwilling to do, possibly because of the fear of the unknown.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by steveyrockstar »

I think Moyes is a very good man-manager of young players. I'm confident that he thinks they're good enough, he'd give them opportunities.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

Chrissieboy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 12:01 pm You are exaggerating, don't you think? People like to see young players come thprugh but that aside we have a small and tired squad that has constantly not performed since December. Especially safter European games we have been pretty poor and Moyes has continued to use Yarmolenko, Vlasic and Masuaku to little effect. Many just questioned whether a youth player couldn't be given a game. Would a young and energetic Perkins have been worse than a tired and increasingly poor Antonio? Okoflex over Yaromolenko? Longello over Masuaku? Chesters over Vlasic? Nobody was screaming out for an Allardicio style throw the whole team under the bus game, were they? The frustration of not seeing Alese play when few CBs are fit or available or Perkins given a few more minutes was further exacerbated by the lack of signings in January.
Honestly check the Facebook comments on our latest u23s win.

I'm not exaggerating.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by YorksHammer »

Kermit wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:47 pm I think with respect you're missing the point. What I'm saying is that back in the day the road to the first team was Under 18s (the lot that play in the F A Youth Cup which we used to be a force in). Then they would progress to the old Football Combination where they would compete against an assortment of other hopefuls like themselves and seasoned professionals not currently in their clubs first elevens. The standard of reserve team football obviously wasn't as high as the first division but it was certainly more of a challenge than the Under 23 league. My point is that surely the likes of Alese would be betting off playing against team.

I'm certainly not saying loaning players out is going to guarantee they'll be a success. However I think it would give a better indication to assess if they are of a standard whereby they can be introduced into the first team for the occasional run out which is something we seem currently unwilling to do, possibly because of the fear of the unknown.
I think the problem is, though, that the loans aren't being successful for some reason. Poor choice of club? Or poor player? When we have had someone do well on loan (Cullen is the one that always sticks out) they've still not really got a chance of cracking the ceiling at first team level. If Alese is going on loan for around half a season to Cambridge and only making two appearances, he's not gaining anything and neither are we. We're much more likely to understand how good he is by having him train with the team and show what he can do there.

That changes, somewhat, if a player is going on loan somewhere and getting nearly a full season of games under their belt.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by honkytonk »

steveyrockstar wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:47 pm Alese has already had two failed loans to League One and League Two. In fact, when he was loaned to Cambridge in League Two, he played 2 games for them all season.
This isnt totally true though. He didnt join Cambridge until Feb. They wanted cover and we wanted him to go on loan. The Cambridge manager at the time said he would have liked to have played him more but they were pushing for promotion and the team was settled. I think it was Hijalko that said when we send players out on loan, its not just about getting game time. Its about living away from home, taking them out of their comfort zone etc. He said it not just random teams we send them to either. Some players we want to go on loan to sides that play in front of bigger crowds as it would suit them getting used to being in the spotlight more etc.

This isnt aimed at you, but as mentioned above, people looks at stats/Wikipedia etc etc and base their opinion of a player on that. I watch quite a bit u23 and 18s when I can, and while they are having great seasons I can fully understand why some have not had more of a chance yet. Ashby looks ready, and he has had the most chances. Longelo looks way off imho (defensively he looks ropey to me). Chesters is close. Perkins and Baptiste, to me look like they need to develop a bit more physically (but they are both still eligible for the u18s so have time). Oko Flex- im not sure. Of course there is the argument that unless he plays we dont know. Ive seen people saying "he has got X amount of goal this season, get him in". What most dont mention is that half of his goals have come from pens. Still has to score but puts a different context on his record. Until last week, he hadnt scored for about 2/3 months!!

Diallo who was "the next big thing" a few years ago looks like he is being released. Loads of hype and tbh, I cant say ive ever seen him really have a good game. Think we may have signed him from Man U??

I am a bit more excited by the u18s, a few in there that have had a taste of the u23 this season and will prob move up next year. Mubama, Marshall (signed from NI in Jan), Clayton. Plus a couple more
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by MB »

If they were good enough then they'd get minutes under Moyes. He has used Johnson a lot and brought through Ngakia who he seemed to want to keep.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by 1895Hammer »

Ashby looks ready for first team football, good physique and has the aggression a number of the others lack. Agree Perkins and Baptiste look very promising, but need to put on some bulk. Thing is kids of 18 can change over a summer, a growth spurt and some gym work might see Perkins close to ready, he certainly has the touch and good pace. The u23 lot are often on You tube, more difficult with u18’s but the brief glimpses of Mubama and the young left back Clayton look interesting, Mubama and Perkins are both England U23 strikers and both use their left foot, which is a novelty for us.
Will be interesting to see who gets taken to the first team preseason training camp, clearest sign of Moyes interest.
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Re: The kids are all right

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honkytonk wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:38 pm This isnt totally true though. He didnt join Cambridge until Feb. They wanted cover and we wanted him to go on loan. The Cambridge manager at the time said he would have liked to have played him more but they were pushing for promotion and the team was settled. I think it was Hijalko that said when we send players out on loan, its not just about getting game time. Its about living away from home, taking them out of their comfort zone etc. He said it not just random teams we send them to either. Some players we want to go on loan to sides that play in front of bigger crowds as it would suit them getting used to being in the spotlight more etc.

This isnt aimed at you, but as mentioned above, people looks at stats/Wikipedia etc etc and base their opinion of a player on that. I watch quite a bit u23 and 18s when I can, and while they are having great seasons I can fully understand why some have not had more of a chance yet. Ashby looks ready, and he has had the most chances. Longelo looks way off imho (defensively he looks ropey to me). Chesters is close. Perkins and Baptiste, to me look like they need to develop a bit more physically (but they are both still eligible for the u18s so have time). Oko Flex- im not sure. Of course there is the argument that unless he plays we dont know. Ive seen people saying "he has got X amount of goal this season, get him in". What most dont mention is that half of his goals have come from pens. Still has to score but puts a different context on his record. Until last week, he hadnt scored for about 2/3 months!!

Diallo who was "the next big thing" a few years ago looks like he is being released. Loads of hype and tbh, I cant say ive ever seen him really have a good game. Think we may have signed him from Man U??

I am a bit more excited by the u18s, a few in there that have had a taste of the u23 this season and will prob move up next year. Mubama, Marshall (signed from NI in Jan), Clayton. Plus a couple more
Clearly you are far more up to speed with the kids than I am. Based on your personal observations do you feel it would be beneficial to give some of the likelier prospects the occasional cameo, maybe in games that are already "in the bag" or even lost and out of reach instead of bringing on the squad players ? If only to see how they would react to a big game environment.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Kermit »

YorksHammer wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:33 pm I think the problem is, though, that the loans aren't being successful for some reason. Poor choice of club? Or poor player? When we have had someone do well on loan (Cullen is the one that always sticks out) they've still not really got a chance of cracking the ceiling at first team level. If Alese is going on loan for around half a season to Cambridge and only making two appearances, he's not gaining anything and neither are we. We're much more likely to understand how good he is by having him train with the team and show what he can do there.

That changes, somewhat, if a player is going on loan somewhere and getting nearly a full season of games under their belt.
Perfectly correct. And maybe I'm being ultra critical of our academy set up because, let's be honest, there haven't been many academy graduates we've let go who have gone on to become big names in the game are there ? Tbh I can only really think of one standout in my years of supporting the club and that's Ray Houghton who, if memory serves, played a whole 30 minutes for us as a sub at Highbury, was released by John Lyall but eventually went on to have a stellar career with Liverpool. Can't think of too many others who've gone on and made it to the top after being released by us.
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