The kids are all right

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Bubbles Fortuna
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

The issue is, clubs like Chelsea use the loan system much better than we do.

James, Chalobah, Mount, Abraham, all had successful loan spells away before breaking into the first team.

Why aren't our kids shining in the Championship likes their's did?

Ashby should be the starting full back for a promotion chasing Championship side next season, Alese should be the best defender at a Championship side next season, players like Rice, Foden, Rashford, they're the exception.
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Kermit
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Kermit »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:43 pm The issue is, clubs like Chelsea use the loan system much better than we do.

James, Chalobah, Mount, Abraham, all had successful loan spells away before breaking into the first team.

Why aren't our kids shining in the Championship likes their's did?

Ashby should be the starting full back for a promotion chasing Championship side next season, Alese should be the best defender at a Championship side next season, players like Rice, Foden, Rashford, they're the exception.
Chelsea's youth set up is to be admired. Apart from the players you've mentioned they've sold a few along the way, Livramento at Southampton and Lamptey at Brighton, not to mention Tomori at A C Milan to name a few and next season I expect Broja and Gallagher, possibly Gilmour as well, to be knocking on the door of their first team squad. Particularly if their ownership issue drags on and they are prevented from recruiting externally.

I suppose the answer to your question could be they aren't good enough to play in the Championship but my view is until we've seen them make the step we'll never know.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by bubbles1966 »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:43 pm The issue is, clubs like Chelsea use the loan system much better than we do.

James, Chalobah, Mount, Abraham, all had successful loan spells away before breaking into the first team.

Why aren't our kids shining in the Championship likes their's did?

Ashby should be the starting full back for a promotion chasing Championship side next season, Alese should be the best defender at a Championship side next season, players like Rice, Foden, Rashford, they're the exception.
Chelsea have factory farmed footballers using the Russian's money. Looks like time's up.
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Liam
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Liam »

Whats the crack with the Divin Mubama? Young lad just opened his account with the 23's.

Anyone know how well he's rated?
1895Hammer
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by 1895Hammer »

Liam wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:16 pm Whats the crack with the Divin Mubama? Young lad just opened his account with the 23's.

Anyone know how well he's rated?
Good enough that Man City tried to poach him as he became old enough to sign his first contract. Both he and Perkins are very promising young strikers.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by RaddyKovac »

So why, when we are so desperate even for options off the bench, haven't we seen them?
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Liam »

RaddyKovac wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:36 pm So why, when we are so desperate even for options off the bench, haven't we seen them?


Perkins has only just turned 18 and Mubama isn't 18 until October so i think they need a little more time before we start complaining. (I think Moyes has been burnt by the half of football that he gave Mipo!)
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Bubbles Fortuna
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

RaddyKovac wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:36 pm So why, when we are so desperate even for options off the bench, haven't we seen them?
Did you see Perkins against Zagreb? The kid isn't ready. They're both 17, how many teams are bringing 17 year olds off the bench consistently?
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by RaddyKovac »

Not sure you can write off a stepping up youth side team player on one performance, any more than you would a new signing. They need time to settle in to the side, the occasion etc.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

RaddyKovac wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:45 pm Not sure you can write off a stepping up youth side team player on one performance, any more than you would a new signing. They need time to settle in to the side, the occasion etc.
He's 17, and he looked it. He's not ready for men's football or he'd be playing. He's not fully grown.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by honkytonk »

Kermit wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:36 pm Clearly you are far more up to speed with the kids than I am. Based on your personal observations do you feel it would be beneficial to give some of the likelier prospects the occasional cameo, maybe in games that are already "in the bag" or even lost and out of reach instead of bringing on the squad players ? If only to see how they would react to a big game environment.
100% I would. That I have no problem with. With the amount of subs on the bench (and next season being allowed to make 5) I would always have one kid on the bench for that reason. The part I dont agree with is say "Antonio is playing crap, Odubeku cant be worse. He scores for the U23s". Going back to the game against Man U, when he came on. He got a bit of grief over his performance. "didnt do much". Watch him for the U23s, thats pretty much how he plays imho. Yes he scores goals at that level, but the rest of his game is really lacking. As you move up and it becomes harder its not good enough. Of course he can work on his game and may still do well but id say he is a prime example of "Get him in, he scores" when really he isnt ready or good enough - so he prob would be worse than playing Antonio.

Without going too far off topic (and becoming really boring) a good way to sum it up I guess was when Duncan Fletcher took over the Eng cricket team. Rather than just picking the young players in County Cricket that had the best averages and not bothering to watch them, he went out, watched games and picked a few that were averaging 30's instead of 40/50s, because from watching them he knew who had the work rate/temperament etc to progress
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Kermit »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:42 pm Did you see Perkins against Zagreb? The kid isn't ready. They're both 17, how many teams are bringing 17 year olds off the bench consistently?
Not many. Although Gavi who plays for Barcelona won his first full Spanish cap before he turned 18.

As someone once said if you're good enough, you're old enough.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Kermit »

bubbles1966 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:06 pm Chelsea have factory farmed footballers using the Russian's money. Looks like time's up.
But I suspect the likes of Mason Mount, Reece James & Co won't worry too much about being factory farmed if their careers continue on their present upward trajectory.

Imo there is nothing wrong whatsoever with using the club's academy as a profit centre as well as a development vehicle. No doubt they have thrown millions at the academy over the years. But how many millions has the emergence of their talent saved them in transfer and agent's fees ?
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

Kermit wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:35 pm Not many. Although Gavi who plays for Barcelona won his first full Spanish cap before he turned 18.

As someone once said if you're good enough, you're old enough.
although it was pretty much forced on them, Barca has blooded some very young kids.

Ansu Fati made his debut at I think 17 and I also think he's played for the national team already.

as has Pedri .

not sure how old Nico is but I'm guessing 18 ish...
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Vienna »

RaddyKovac wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:45 pm Not sure you can write off a stepping up youth side team player on one performance, any more than you would a new signing. They need time to settle in to the side, the occasion etc.
Correct, no way can you judge him on that match, with first team players around him and after a few starts, you'll see what a good finisher he is, maybe!.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:43 pm The issue is, clubs like Chelsea use the loan system much better than we do.

James, Chalobah, Mount, Abraham, all had successful loan spells away before breaking into the first team.

Why aren't our kids shining in the Championship likes their's did?

Ashby should be the starting full back for a promotion chasing Championship side next season, Alese should be the best defender at a Championship side next season, players like Rice, Foden, Rashford, they're the exception.
Probably because their youngsters you have mentioned are a lot better than ours
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by lincolnhammer1963 »

West Ham's reputation for producing young talent is renowned.
It's almost certainly because the ones that do come through our academy go onto have big international careers.
The problem our club has is its insistence on calling itself the Academy of Football.

We've produced some very good players over the years.
But let's be honest it hasn't got us anywhere really.
Has it ?
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:57 am Probably because their youngsters you have mentioned are a lot better than ours
That was part of the point I'm making.

There's a reason we're not blooding our youth players, if they were good enough, like Rice and Johnson, they'd be playing.

We tend to go through this every couple of years, then the players that 'should be given a chance!' end up playing in League two.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by funky chicken »

The youngsters who tend to make it simply grab their chance when they get them. Noble did all those years ago. Collision did, Tomkins did. And in recent years so have Diangana, Ngakia, Rice and Johnson. Ashby arguably has too, playing against Rapid Wien and the quarter finals against the Spuds in the Carabao. But is just unfortunate he plays in a position we have a lot of options in. If the Norwich game hadn’t been moved he was likely going to start in that game too.

Conor Coventry may well have had a chance this season too had he decided to stay. Remember, the player himself said Moyes was more than happy for him to stay. But Conor chose to go out on loan.

Players going out on loan doesn’t necessarily mean a player won’t make it though. Moyes loaned out Osman and Barkley. And Osman became a real favourite under Moyes.

As long as we get lucky with the domestic cup draws against lower league opposition and if we are also in the Europa Conference next season I am sure more of them will get their chance. It’s down to them to take it. If you’re good enough you’re good enough.
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Re: The kids are all right

Post by YorksHammer »

lincolnhammer1963 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:05 am We've produced some very good players over the years.
But let's be honest it hasn't got us anywhere really.
Has it ?
Arguably the biggest sliding doors moment in our recent history is probably the 02/03 season where we were relegated. We had Joe Cole, Glen Johnson, Jermain Defoe, and Michael Carrick - essentially a spine that would have lasted a good decade for us.

What a different world it could have been had we not been relegated then.
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