The kids are all right

[Whitton tank]

Getting decent fees for our discards are what helped build the squad in the 60's.Sadly our success at attracting local talent dwindled as other clubs surpassed what we could offer.

[Bond Holder 59]

I agree with others, back in the day we seemed to have a stream of local talent coming towards us, but like everything else, the topic is now global. In the past we dominated Orient and others because we had more money, now …….

I think that chart of minutes played by u23 registered players on kumb was key. Even in our last game, with nothing to lose and much to gain (don’t mean 6th place), we could have gained some insight into Oxflex etc.

Nobes and Yarmo were never going to turn the match…..we didn’t move forward.

IMO.
⚒

[YorksHammer]

Coventry this season seems to be in what I'm going to refer to as the 'Cullen Zone' - seems to be a lot of support for him getting a squad spot this season, but if he doesn't or the manager thinks he isn't good enough for it it's probably best for him, and us, that he looks at a career elsewhere.

Bryam was always tipped to be a top prospect, very similar to Cresswell, which is why we bought him I think. I really wanted him at the time.

Didn’t work out at all though, but I think I remember hearing Bryams form had dipped quite a bit in the year leading up to us buying him.

Still forged a very decent career but nowhere near what people predicted when he was coming through at Leeds.

Didn't Byram get moved forward to the wing for Leeds in the season or so before we signed him because they didn't trust him defensively? To be fair, I really thought we'd signed a long-term Cresswell-esque right back when he came.

Looking at our U23s this season, they ended up second in their PL2 league, behind Man City but ahead of Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Man United, and Chelsea. That success is largely built on the backs of the youngsters themselves, we only intermittently used an overage/first team player. Appiah-Forson, Alese, Oko-Flex, Hegyi, and Chesters made the most appearances for the team across their season.

When I have found time to watch the U23 games on YouTube when they're shown, I've been pretty impressed with Appiah-Forson out of those five names. Seems to have a sense for breaking up the play and some good distribution from deep, as well as a bit of a forward run on him. Couldn't quite see where he would fit in the first team - he's probably more offensive than Rice/Soucek, but more defensive than Fornals/Lanzini - but to me he looks like he could be a promising player.

[Kermit]

Longelo is the one I'd like to see a bit more of. Whenever I've seen him for the youth he seems to breeze past everyone on the left like it's easy for him.

I've heard that his defending can be suspect, but if that's the case I thought he might get a chance on the left of midfield like Masuaku has had as he does seem to be good at beating people

The main criticism I have of Moyes is his apparent reluctance to trust youth and, imo, Longelo is an excellent example. Tbh I've only seen him play once, which was the Zagreb game, and I thought he did OK, And he seemed a "proper" LB, unlike Masuaku who, whilst occasionally looking good going forward, is a defensive nightmare. I would much have preferred to see Longelo used in the situations where Masuaku was brought on. I accept he may not have been up to the task, but if we don't have look we'll never know, and Masuaku's defensive shortcomings are well known so surely there would have been minimal risk.

[Kermit]

Don’t think we have too many who will be Premier regulars, but we have to do better here when they move on. There are several who could have decent Championship or League 1 careers and West Ham should be selling those off at £1-2m each, do that for 3 or 4 of them ( Alese, Longello etc) and you’ve paid the Bosman signing bonus and a years wages for a Lingard, or given yourself the extra few £m that might be needed to get Bassey if competitive bidding pushes his fee from £20 to £25m. Okoflex is 21, Moyes hasn’t played him, is he a sweetener for Hull in a Lewis-Potter deal?
We just seem to let these guys drift off, as with Scully at Lincoln, Afolyan at Bolton, a few at Luton. It’s missed opportunity and something the club needs to get far more professional about. Not saying we need to go to Chelsea levels which needs big initial investment, but let’s at least get some value.

Imo Chelsea have got it right. Certainly their academy set up probably cost many millions but I'm quite sure it's more than paid for itself many times over with the players it has turned out.

They currently have Mount, James, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi and Chalobah, to name 5 in their regular first team squad, and in all probability will add Conor Gallagher and possibly Broja to it next season. And they've also received fees for the likes of Guehi, Tomori, Abraham and Lamptey to name just 3 who are enjoying playing football at the top level either here or Italy.

Apart from the recently retired Mark Noble, Declan Rice, who we were fortunate to get because someone at Chelsea dropped the ball, and Ben Johnson from the present squad I can't think of too many of our academy products who have made any sort of impact at the top level of the game. James Tomkins is the only one I can think of in relatively recent years.

With ever increasing transfer fees imo that is a situation we need to address.

[Aceface]

There are some paltry numbers in terms of making the first team in modern times but it still does just enough to make it worthwhile.

We got £30m+ from the sale of Tomkins and Diangana, Johnson has been invaluable at times this season given Coufal and Fredericks's injuries, this week saw the retirement of a club icon who came through it, and Rice is the type of product you'd run an academy for 10 years for just to have one player of his quality emerge. And he'll more than pay the tab for the last 30 years of running it when he goes.

[1895Hammer]

Imo Chelsea have got it right. Certainly their academy set up probably cost many millions but I'm quite sure it's more than paid for itself many times over with the players it has turned out.

They currently have Mount, James, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi and Chalobah, to name 5 in their regular first team squad, and in all probability will add Conor Gallagher and possibly Broja to it next season. And they've also received fees for the likes of Guehi, Tomori, Abraham and Lamptey to name just 3 who are enjoying playing football at the top level either here or Italy.

Apart from the recently retired Mark Noble, Declan Rice, who we were fortunate to get because someone at Chelsea dropped the ball, and Ben Johnson from the present squad I can't think of too many of our academy products who have made any sort of impact at the top level of the game. James Tomkins is the only one I can think of in relatively recent years.

With ever increasing transfer fees imo that is a situation we need to address.

In a perfect world I agree Kermit. Our problem though is years of bad squad management have brought us to today and the immediate need for 5/6 new first team level buys, not sure we can afford that never mind huge investment in the youth set up.

Think this is where both Moyes and the original Kretinsky statement are going, build the club over time, but stay reasonably competitive now,
5 years from today I’d love us to be buying 2 first teamers a year, having a 3rd arriving from the youth team, and funding one of the first 2 from youth developed sales. The Chelsea model works brilliantly now, but took years and countless millions to get started, unless MR K throws £100m + into the pot we will have to prioritise, failure to invest in the present costs us Rice and Bowen I suspect, we just can’t let that happen. But longer term….

[hammerman11]

decision time for many ; holland trott anang coventry okoflex alese oludepo . are they good enough for the first team squad ? probably not .
be interesting to see coventry given a go pre season but doubt he is good enough. we shall see.

[mushy]

Imo Chelsea have got it right. Certainly their academy set up probably cost many millions but I'm quite sure it's more than paid for itself many times over with the players it has turned out.

They currently have Mount, James, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi and Chalobah, to name 5 in their regular first team squad, and in all probability will add Conor Gallagher and possibly Broja to it next season. And they've also received fees for the likes of Guehi, Tomori, Abraham and Lamptey to name just 3 who are enjoying playing football at the top level either here or Italy.

Apart from the recently retired Mark Noble, Declan Rice, who we were fortunate to get because someone at Chelsea dropped the ball, and Ben Johnson from the present squad I can't think of too many of our academy products who have made any sort of impact at the top level of the game. James Tomkins is the only one I can think of in relatively recent years.

With ever increasing transfer fees imo that is a situation we need to address.

And therein lies the real rub.
It's all about recruitment, it's not about identifying players as young as eight to join our academy it's about persuading them to join when every other academy also wants the same player. The likes of Chelsea with their billions are easily able to persuade the parents of an 8 year old that their facilities and coaches are 100 x better then ours, and they may well be right.
As a result we are already behind the game and have to rely on finding players that other academies either don't rate that highly enough or that they miss.
Kids from East London and Essex (our former heartlands) regularly sign for clubs other then their local side.
In essence we are always playing catch-up.
You can say that Chelsea have got it right but all they are doing is using their wealth to scoop up talent not only from this country but all over the world by playing hard and fast with the rules.
I personally don't think it's right at all.

[Danny's Dyer Acting]

They currently have Mount, James, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi and Chalobah, to name 5 in their regular first team squad, and in all probability will add Conor Gallagher and possibly Broja to it next season. And they've also received fees for the likes of Guehi, Tomori, Abraham and Lamptey to name just 3 who are enjoying playing football at the top level either here or Italy.

Chelsea's youth scouts did some superb work about 10-12 years ago. You can add Rice, Brewster and Nketiah to that same group of players they had on the books.

[Kermit]

And therein lies the real rub.
It's all about recruitment, it's not about identifying players as young as eight to join our academy it's about persuading them to join when every other academy also wants the same player. The likes of Chelsea with their billions are easily able to persuade the parents of an 8 year old that their facilities and coaches are 100 x better then ours, and they may well be right.
As a result we are already behind the game and have to rely on finding players that other academies either don't rate that highly enough or that they miss.
Kids from East London and Essex (our former heartlands) regularly sign for clubs other then their local side.
In essence we are always playing catch-up.
You can say that Chelsea have got it right but all they are doing is using their wealth to scoop up talent not only from this country but all over the world by playing hard and fast with the rules.
I personally don't think it's right at all.

Your point about training facilities is a very good one. But I don't understand why you think it's not right. Surely spending a lot of money on state of the art training facilities comes under the heading of "speculating to accumulate" doesn't it ? I've no idea how much Chelsea and Spurs, two of the best training centres I've ever been to, spent to build them but it's money very well spent imo.

I would rather have seen the £30 million we apparently paid for Said Benrahma spent on creating a state of the art training centre if it meant it gave us the opportunity of getting some of those local players you mention instead of seeing them enticed to clubs further away because our training centres didn't reach the same standard.

And it isn't just the so called Big 6 who lavish money on training centres. I've never been to it but apparently Leicester have one that is the envy of other clubs in the Midlands.

[Bubbles Fortuna]

I agree with others, back in the day we seemed to have a stream of local talent coming towards us, but like everything else, the topic is now global. In the past we dominated Orient and others because we had more money, now …….

I think that chart of minutes played by u23 registered players on kumb was key. Even in our last game, with nothing to lose and much to gain (don’t mean 6th place), we could have gained some insight into Oxflex etc.

Nobes and Yarmo were never going to turn the match…..we didn’t move forward.

IMO.
⚒

Yarmolenko had already one the game against Aston Villa and Sevilla recently.

'never going to turn the match' is a bold statement.

[mushy]

Your point about training facilities is a very good one. But I don't understand why you think it's not right. Surely spending a lot of money on state of the art training facilities comes under the heading of "speculating to accumulate" doesn't it ? I've no idea how much Chelsea and Spurs, two of the best training centres I've ever been to, spent to build them but it's money very well spent imo.

I would rather have seen the £30 million we apparently paid for Said Benrahma spent on creating a state of the art training centre if it meant it gave us the opportunity of getting some of those local players you mention instead of seeing them enticed to clubs further away because our training centres didn't reach the same standard.

And it isn't just the so called Big 6 who lavish money on training centres. I've never been to it but apparently Leicester have one that is the envy of other clubs in the Midlands.

[mushy]

Your point about training facilities is a very good one. But I don't understand why you think it's not right. Surely spending a lot of money on state of the art training facilities comes under the heading of "speculating to accumulate" doesn't it ? I've no idea how much Chelsea and Spurs, two of the best training centres I've ever been to, spent to build them but it's money very well spent imo.

I would rather have seen the £30 million we apparently paid for Said Benrahma spent on creating a state of the art training centre if it meant it gave us the opportunity of getting some of those local players you mention instead of seeing them enticed to clubs further away because our training centres didn't reach the same standard.

And it isn't just the so called Big 6 who lavish money on training centres. I've never been to it but apparently Leicester have one that is the envy of other clubs in the Midlands.

Am.mot sure I did say that it was a bad thing did I Kermit? I think something has gone wrong on our lines of communication.
My point about money and recruitment is more about how players are recruited using money, inducements etc. The moving of entire families so they are nearer the training grounds for instance, not to mention other monetary inducements (nothing can be proved).
For what it's worth I agree that first class youth training facilities are a must but even if we ever did spend money on those we are still miles behind the others.
Money rules I'm afraid and our board continually use money to patch up the first team squad rather then invest in the future, and theyre not even very good at that either. GSB have no interest in anything further forward then the next couple of seasons which to me is the root of the problem.

[e20too]

Yarmolenko had already one the game against Aston Villa and Sevilla recently.

'never going to turn the match' is a bold statement.

I do wonder what motivation Yarmo had considering these were his last minutes of employment and the only significance to him would surely have been to ensure coming out of it free from injury so he can concentrate on negotiating a contract else where… unless he’s retiring. Hardly the most convincing of subs when the result meant so much to those who were actually staying, or should have.

[Kermit]

Am.mot sure I did say that it was a bad thing did I Kermit? I think something has gone wrong on our lines of communication.
My point about money and recruitment is more about how players are recruited using money, inducements etc. The moving of entire families so they are nearer the training grounds for instance, not to mention other monetary inducements (nothing can be proved).
For what it's worth I agree that first class youth training facilities are a must but even if we ever did spend money on those we are still miles behind the others.
Money rules I'm afraid and our board continually use money to patch up the first team squad rather then invest in the future, and theyre not even very good at that either. GSB have no interest in anything further forward then the next couple of seasons which to me is the root of the problem.

I interpreted your last line as an opinion that Chelsea were doing something against the rules. I don't actually see that scooping up local talent (the names I mentioned are English, not from abroad) to be playing hard and fast with the rules. Promoting the excellence of your facilities may give you an advantage but imo that's fair game in a competitive environment. Apologies if that isn't what was meant.
mushy wrote: ↑
Wed May 25, 2022 10:10 am
And therein lies the real rub.
It's all about recruitment, it's not about identifying players as young as eight to join our academy it's about persuading them to join when every other academy also wants the same player. The likes of Chelsea with their billions are easily able to persuade the parents of an 8 year old that their facilities and coaches are 100 x better then ours, and they may well be right.
As a result we are already behind the game and have to rely on finding players that other academies either don't rate that highly enough or that they miss.
Kids from East London and Essex (our former heartlands) regularly sign for clubs other then their local side.
In essence we are always playing catch-up.
You can say that Chelsea have got it right but all they are doing is using their wealth to scoop up talent not only from this country but all over the world by playing hard and fast with the rules.
I personally don't think it's right at all.

[The Straw]

And therein lies the real rub.
It's all about recruitment, it's not about identifying players as young as eight to join our academy it's about persuading them to join when every other academy also wants the same player. The likes of Chelsea with their billions are easily able to persuade the parents of an 8 year old that their facilities and coaches are 100 x better then ours, and they may well be right.
As a result we are already behind the game and have to rely on finding players that other academies either don't rate that highly enough or that they miss.
Kids from East London and Essex (our former heartlands) regularly sign for clubs other then their local side.
In essence we are always playing catch-up.
You can say that Chelsea have got it right but all they are doing is using their wealth to scoop up talent not only from this country but all over the world by playing hard and fast with the rules.
I personally don't think it's right at all.

Facilities maybe, but it doesn't matter at that age. Although a large percentage of parents are absolutely desperate which is sad.

Better coaches at academy level? Definitely not.

Chelsea absolutely do not play by the rules when it comes to signing pre-teens though. That's a bona-fide fact. Ruthless, horrible club.

[The Straw]

Chelsea's youth scouts did some superb work about 10-12 years ago. You can add Rice, Brewster and Nketiah to that same group of players they had on the books.

These days pretty much every London club knows about every kid from a really young age. 6/7/8. The problem isn't that we miss them, everyone knows who is special early doors. The problem is getting them to stay at the club. They all train with all the clubs until its time to sign for one at u8/u9 level. Madness I know.

[Cuenca 'ammer]

Facilities maybe, but it doesn't matter at that age. Although a large percentage of parents are absolutely desperate which is sad.

Better coaches at academy level? Definitely not.

Chelsea absolutely do not play by the rules when it comes to signing pre-teens though. That's a bona-fide fact. Ruthless, horrible club.

not wishing to be a dickhead and I don't know if their bosses at the academy are better but I would have to think so.

when I was coaching the u littles, at the club I worked with, we were already very good name wise in that we had an Academy as in recognised with the USSF and had already won a national title several years before I was there..

we stuck the least qualified coaches with the lower age kids and the higher qualified coaches wit the already better kids.

madness.

here's how to do it.

and you can look at the German models which pretty much mirror this model or vice versa..

https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/09/2 ... r-success/



Having coaches with a high level of education gives Icelandic children the opportunity to receive a strong foundation. This is something that is not the case in many countries – in particular the U.S. where grassroots coaches are often under-qualified and lacking in basic training principles.

you don't necessarily have to "sell" parents with the idea that their kids will progress to the first team sooner, although that certainly helps.

BUT.

if you show them that the coaches the kids will be working with will develop them better than the bloke over the road who does this for example in his spare time between throwing plaster on various walls or bricks on a building, you've got them hooked. they can leave later if they feel their pathway is better and you scoop up some money for their development.

[Kermit]

Chelsea absolutely do not play by the rules when it comes to signing pre-teens though. That's a bona-fide fact. Ruthless, horrible club.

Can I ask how you know that to be a bona fide fact ? And if they don't why are the rules not applied and sanctions imposed ?

I know there were some issues regarding signing players from oversease a few years back but the bulk of the Chelsea players who have made their first team or who are out on loan are English.