Migrants crossing the Channel

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SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Hammer1966 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:24 pm It depends on what it was that made your life **** in the first place. The mixing of migrant, economic migrant, asylum seeker and the non-existent 'illegal asylum seeker' much favoured by the right into a giant dingy tend to make discussions about this topic like platting fog. I'd wager the majority of people coming across in boats have been people for whom the motivation has been to escape an unbelievably horrific life and to look for something better. My point (you can argue it was clumsily made) was that this motivation is a huge driver and can push you to do things you didn't think were possible and the worse your starting point the harder you'll try and the more desperate your position becomes (hence the exploitation).That's why I think a lot of people get in boats that have the potential to kill them.
Asylum is a very specific thing. It's about safety. The motivation to seek asylum is fear for your safety by definition. You can't seek asylum because there is no work at home for example.

Migrants and economic migrants on dinghy's are irrelevant in this conversation really as they are looking to enter illegally.i fully accept their motivation would be different but they are trying to bypass the systems that are in place to come and work here.

So back to the bit I struggle with, if your motivation is safety, you live in fear at home, you risk death to get out, you manage not to drown crossing the med or freeze to death in a lorry to arrive in a safe country - why get on a dinghy in France? It's just counter intuitive to me. I fully understand there are any number of reasons people would prefer to end up here and there should be a better international system in place.
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Turns to Stone
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Turns to Stone »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:54 pm Asylum is a very specific thing. It's about safety. The motivation to seek asylum is fear for your safety by definition. You can't seek asylum because there is no work at home for example.

Migrants and economic migrants on dinghy's are irrelevant in this conversation really as they are looking to enter illegally.i fully accept their motivation would be different but they are trying to bypass the systems that are in place to come and work here.

So back to the bit I struggle with, if your motivation is safety, you live in fear at home, you risk death to get out, you manage not to drown crossing the med or freeze to death in a lorry to arrive in a safe country - why get on a dinghy in France? It's just counter intuitive to me. I fully understand there are any number of reasons people would prefer to end up here and there should be a better international system in place.
We had a visit to our school from a magistrate who actually sits on the panels that make the decision on whether migrants will gain asylum or not. He was chatting to students about illegal migration, and he made the point that many of the migrants that come to the UK don't actually know what the laws are. Many of them have suffered persecution in their own country and they feel that they might have no choice but to leave. The majority of people who are in those lorries or on those dinghies feel they have no choice but to make that journey. They don't have the legal advice or support or education to necessarily decide whether they're going to get asylum or not - they're doing it out of blind hope.

Kind of like it was for the Europeans travelling to the US a hundred years ago. They're travelling on hope, not on fear.
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:54 pm Asylum is a very specific thing. It's about safety. The motivation to seek asylum is fear for your safety by definition. You can't seek asylum because there is no work at home for example.

Migrants and economic migrants on dinghy's are irrelevant in this conversation really as they are looking to enter illegally.i fully accept their motivation would be different but they are trying to bypass the systems that are in place to come and work here.

So back to the bit I struggle with, if your motivation is safety, you live in fear at home, you risk death to get out, you manage not to drown crossing the med or freeze to death in a lorry to arrive in a safe country - why get on a dinghy in France? It's just counter intuitive to me. I fully understand there are any number of reasons people would prefer to end up here and there should be a better international system in place.
In terms of the last paragraph, who knows. Individuals will have their reasons whether they have escaped from fear or just want to get to where they think will offer them the best opportunities and chance of assimiliation and belonging. Also, humans are not rational in theor beliefs, and decision making, so all sorts of unconcsious biases will be influencing them

I don't necessarily think that everyone who gets on a dinghy and risks their lives to get here should be allowed to enter legally, but I certainly don't blame them for trying and hold no animosity towards them. I expect i would do the same if the situation was reversed
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Hammer1966
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Hammer1966 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:54 pm Asylum is a very specific thing. It's about safety. The motivation to seek asylum is fear for your safety by definition. You can't seek asylum because there is no work at home for example.

Migrants and economic migrants on dinghy's are irrelevant in this conversation really as they are looking to enter illegally.i fully accept their motivation would be different but they are trying to bypass the systems that are in place to come and work here.

So back to the bit I struggle with, if your motivation is safety, you live in fear at home, you risk death to get out, you manage not to drown crossing the med or freeze to death in a lorry to arrive in a safe country - why get on a dinghy in France? It's just counter intuitive to me. I fully understand there are any number of reasons people would prefer to end up here and there should be a better international system in place.
I'm aware of the definitions. Maybe change the thread title and we'll just discuss asylum seekers and their motivation. I can't tell you why they get in the boats I can only extrapolate from why I did what I did and figure out that it must be something pretty spectacular to make them do what they do. Counter intutarive? I guess that's all about perspective. I'm sure you'll agree theirs is different.

I'm off out for dinner. It's been an interesting conversation. Enjoy your evening.
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Hammer1966
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Hammer1966 »

A take on what could be done if everyone was a bit more honest about the situation by Lewis Goodall

In essence no politician will propose a solution that will actually work as its all about votes and not about people dying.

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Shabu
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Shabu »

Happy International Migrants Day :scarfer:
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delbert
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by delbert »

Hammer1966 wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:37 pm A take on what could be done if everyone was a bit more honest about the situation by Lewis Goodall

In essence no politician will propose a solution that will actually work as its all about votes and not about people dying.

His figures are off mate, he states £5.5M is the weekly cost of bunging asylum seekers in hotels, it's £5.5M per day. That aside he concentrates on the humanitarian aspect of having to cross the channel before being able to make asylum claims and from that perspective it is hard to argue against the points he raised. I'll have a go though. :winker:
At one point he raises the question of safe routes, the government has implemented these in areas where it believes they are necessary (currently Ukraine and Afghanistan I believe). There's plenty of other countries around the world that are basket cases or have less savoury regimes in charge, do we have to implement the same scheme in these as well? Who chooses which ones? Would it be all of them? If so, where will it end?
Wouldn't it be better for there to be refuge centres for people to make their way to (North Africa for example) where they claim for asylum there? We could then still implement the safe route scheme in emergencies for when the crap really hits the fan.
The real truth is that politicians won't propose solutions to a problem the UN should be dealing with, bollox to them having to cross the channel, they shouldn't have to cross the Mediterranean........
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by YorksHammer »

delbert wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:24 am Wouldn't it be better for there to be refuge centres for people to make their way to (North Africa for example) where they claim for asylum there? We could then still implement the safe route scheme in emergencies for when the crap really hits the fan.
I think I said something similar to this in another thread - maybe the Sunak Government one. The biggest thing that has increased the number of small boat crossings is that there is now no legal route into the UK to claim asylum, and it became more draconian after the Nationality and Borders Act was introduced. It's illegal to enter the UK without a visa, and given that there's no 'asylum visa' that someone can get abroad, people either need to illegally enter the country without one then claim asylum, or illegally lie to get a different visa, then come here and claim asylum.

If we could create a legal system, using our overseas embassies/high commissions or whatever else we have, whereby an asylum seeker can go to there - wherever it is in the world, not necessarily country of origin - and make an application for asylum to the UK from an overseas point, the whole system becomes better and there's less strain in this country. There would then be opportunity for them to - upon a successful application - be booked on a flight here from where they are, a proper process be set up in this country for them upon arrival, and a much kinder system. I'm sure it wouldn't stop the small boat crossings for some, but I feel certain it would reduce the numbers needing to take that route. There was some research that showed most small boat migrants are claiming asylum and largely those applications are successful - I can't find it now, but it was from the Refugee Council.

Basically, the system needs to be not just about attempting to stop the illegal routes into the country, but about creating legal ones. At the moment, it seems to me there is no viable legal route into the country for many refugees and asylum seekers. Create a system that does this and that's how you stop the dependence on things like the boat crossings.
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

High Court rules Rwanda asylum plan is legal
Summary

The UK government's plan to send some asylum seekers to Rwanda is lawful, the High Court has ruled

Judges ruled in favour of the Home Office after a legal challenge by charities and campaign groups, who argued Rwanda was not a safe destination

However, the court has ruled that the cases of eight individual asylum seekers - who were due to be sent to Rwanda earlier this year - must be reconsidered

Following the ruling, Home Secretary Suella Braverman said the government was "committed" to making the plan work
Braverman to make statement in the Commons at 1430
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by delbert »

Be a bit of a kicker if you was an Albanian and ended up in Rwanda.......
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by likemydreams »

This comment was removed by a moderator because it failed to abide by our community standards. For more details, please refer to the Forum Terms of Use. Replies may also be deleted.
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Hammer1966
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Hammer1966 »

Unless you've got some evidence to back that ***** up I'd respectfully suggest you delete it.
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by chelmsfordhammer91 »

18-30s cruises have really gone downhill.

On a more serious note, let's say they are crossing the channel, I'd be sh*tting myself until arriving alive.
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by likemydreams »

Definitely crossing the channel , thousands of them !
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Denbighammer »

Just look at all those women & children. Engineers and doctors every one of em.
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by likemydreams »

Denbighammer wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:41 pm Just look at all those women & children. Engineers and doctors every one of em.
I will never donate to RNLI again that's for sure !
Last edited by likemydreams on Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveWHU1964
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by DaveWHU1964 »

likemydreams wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:41 pm I will never donate to RNLI again that for sure !
Would you start to donate again if the RNLI decided that in future it would just let them drown?
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting »

likemydreams wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:41 pm I will never donate to RNLI again that's for sure !
I'll set up a DD in your name Nige :newthumb:
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Tenbury »

likemydreams wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:41 pm I will never donate to RNLI again that's for sure !
Not to worry, when your lilo drifts off, they'll still pick you up.
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Re: Migrants crossing the Channel

Post by Oldun »

To criticise a group of unpaid volunteers is a new low for me.
A divided country of people who care and people who only care for themselves.
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