Migrants crossing the Channel

[delbert]

They certainly give a first rate impression of a government which has given up on solving it, or even containing it. By taking that stance they have alienated the vast majority of their core support. Labour’s best campaign poster next year is a simple graph showing the numbers who have arrived in the past two years and the associated cost.

To do that they'd have to put something in their manifesto to show how they'd deal with it....

[Collison Theory]

There is no UK MSM network willing and capable of hosting a balanced, non-biased, non-hysterical, sensible debate about controlled immigration. Nobody sensible would appear on it to state the case for controlled as they know they’d be called ‘far right’ and ‘racist’ immediately post-programme. Free speech dead in this country, replaced by ‘acceptable speech’ acceptable only to those of far-left persuasion, otherwise, forget it.

This seems contradictory to me. You want an open debate, I agree, I've debated immigration lots of times, and I try and do so in a non-hysterical way, I try and be as balanced as possible, while recognising I have bias.

And I believe racial prejudice is an important factor in how immigrants are viewed and treated, and so do millions of other people. You can't be both in favour of free speech, and wanting to censor people who call out racism when they perceive it.

I'm not saying you have to agree with this viewpoint, but you do have to acknowledge it's a real viewpoint a significant number of people hold, we aren't just to shut down conversation, that is our perspective, and in a free speech system, that is part of the debate.

Supporting free speech means supporting the freedom of speech of people who disagree with you. Every despot supports free speech for those who agree with them.

[Monkeybubbles]

There is no UK MSM network willing and capable of hosting a balanced, non-biased, non-hysterical, sensible debate about controlled immigration. Nobody sensible would appear on it to state the case for controlled as they know they’d be called ‘far right’ and ‘racist’ immediately post-programme. Free speech dead in this country, replaced by ‘acceptable speech’ acceptable only to those of far-left persuasion, otherwise, forget it.

100% untrue, really.

[Bend it like Repka]

And I believe racial prejudice is an important factor in how immigrants are viewed and treated,

Immigrants by nature are a different race automatically. Considering most humans are tribal by instinct it's kind of to be expected long term inhabitants fear/dislike a new group entering their "territory".

If a person is living in a town that hasn't changed for 20 years, and you tell them 50 muslims/Bulgarians/French/Trump supporting Texans are moving in their first instinct probably won't be positive.

It's human nature surely?

[Monkeybubbles]

I'm honestly astonished to read a view against impeding criminal gangs recruitment activity and effectively helping facilitate it, as though that's a consequence free endeavour for society.

I'm not sure, but I think I think this might be aimed at one of my posts. In which case, also 100% untrue unless you equate "concerned about the welfare of the innocent" with "against impeding criminal gangs".

[Collison Theory]

Immigrants by nature are a different race automatically. Considering most humans are tribal by instinct it's kind of to be expected long term inhabitants fear/dislike a new group entering their "territory".

If a person is living in a town that hasn't changed for 20 years, and you tell them 50 muslims/Bulgarians/French/Trump supporting Texans are moving in their first instinct probably won't be positive.

It's human nature surely?

I certainly agree with some of that, I think it is human nature to be tribalistic, and tribalism can often be expressed in racism.

Which only makes it all the more ridiculous that many people are outraged that racial prejudice is part of this conversation, when it is so clearly evident.

We are not restricted to our natural instincts. I wrote about this in the BBC thread, when I saw pictures from Ukraine, I did feel more personally affected by seeing people that look like my family, than I do by similar scenes in Africa and the Middle East. But I try not to let those feelings translate into support for racist policies, but to instead attempt to look at things rationally, and offer the same support to people who don't look like me.

[YorksHammer]

If a person is living in a town that hasn't changed for 20 years, and you tell them 50 muslims/Bulgarians/French/Trump supporting Texans are moving in their first instinct probably won't be positive.

Is it odd I'd be most upset about the Texans?

[Hummer_I_mean_Hammer]

Is it odd I'd be most upset about the Texans?

Same here, can't ever forgive them for discontinuing the Texan Bar.

[Bend it like Repka]

We are not restricted to our natural instincts. I wrote about this in the BBC thread, when I saw pictures from Ukraine, I did feel more personally affected by seeing people that look like my family, than I do by similar scenes in Africa and the Middle East.

I'd say there is so much famine, war and tragedy in Africa and the Middle East we have become desensitised to it. Seeing it in a (sort of) European country against our "enemy" of the last half century plus is a little more worrying

But I try not to let those feelings translate into support for racist policies, but to instead attempt to look at things rationally, and offer the same support to people who don't look like me.

But that comes back down to the debate in hand. Is protecting your border "Racist"? Immigrants come in all colours and creeds, but the ones coming by boat are black and middle eastern. It goes against all logic that having borders you police should not apply to people landing on boats on our coastline. But whenever the conversation turns to stopping that route, the automatic response ranges between inhuman and racist.

If I walk through an airport in many countries, I am not offended by passport and visa checks, but somehow it is outrageous to try to stop people smuggling across the channel.

[bubbles1966]

Braverman was ripping Labour one the other night for daring to suggest that she should have a particular opinion because of her racial background. They were doing it with Kwarteng six months ago.

You have to ask who the racists really are if they think people with a particular skin colour have to conform to a certain thought pattern.

More generally with entry to the UK, why should somebody who has played by the rules to gain legal admission to the country, possibly with considerable delays, then be happy to watch someone else game the system?

Then there's the obvious, why are they lumping someone born in West London into the same group?

[delbert]

I think it was Dawn Butler who tried doing something similar with Kemi Badenoch, it was like watching Joey Essex go up against Stephen Fry in a pub quiz..........

[YorksHammer]

But that comes back down to the debate in hand. Is protecting your border "Racist"? Immigrants come in all colours and creeds, but the ones coming by boat are black and middle eastern. It goes against all logic that having borders you police should not apply to people landing on boats on our coastline. But whenever the conversation turns to stopping that route, the automatic response ranges between inhuman and racist.

I think it's worth changing the conversations around the policy being racist, because it becomes inflammatory and masks what should actually be debated here.

What it is is inhumane and unfairly harsh on those seeking to flee awful conditions, quite commonly those of war, famine, and organised crime, and seek safety.

Sending folks back to where they came from and into the very things they are trying to get away from that are harming them and causing them to try and seek sanctuary in the first place.

[delbert]

I think it's worth changing the conversations around the policy being racist, because it becomes inflammatory and masks what should actually be debated here.

What it is is inhumane and unfairly harsh on those seeking to flee awful conditions, quite commonly those of war, famine, and organised crime, and seek safety.

Sending folks back to where they came from and into the very things they are trying to get away from that are harming them and causing them to try and seek sanctuary in the first place.

Ok, I'll bite. :lol:
I see organised crime has made it's way into the mix, I assume that's been added to cover our Albanian friends making their way here to culturally enrich our lives?
Fleeing conditions so awful the young men felt it OK to leave their families behind to deal with? Just the sort of fine upstanding citizen we need to drive this country forward, that is of course if they who are they say they are. Any young "war fighting age male" coming here should be onto a loser, they're either the worst kind of person who has left their family behind to face the music in whatever hell hole it is they've escaped from* or they're lying criminals. It wouldn't be inhumane to separate the wheat from the chaff, it would actually be beneficial to the wheat to do so.
Women, children (real ones, not middle aged teenagers) and family groups we should scoop up, put a caring arm around and process humanely in a welcoming environment, young single males should be shipped off and processed very slowly in a tented camp in West Falkland's.

* Not France obviously.

[YorksHammer]

Any young "war fighting age male" coming here should be onto a loser, they're either the worst kind of person who has left their family behind to face the music in whatever hell hole it is they've escaped from* or they're lying criminals.

Or they've watched their family die in the war and are trying to make sure they don't face the same fate?

Or they've sent their family ahead of them away from the war and are now trying to get here to be reunited with them?*

Or they've been forced from a young age into a gang, committed crimes under duress, and have escaped that?

It's not quite as black and white as you seem to think here.

I've said before, I'm in favour of filtering out the chaff by offering a legal route to claim asylum here through asylum visas being available to apply for before they get to the UK. Currently that's not an option, they have to get here before they can claim asylum. Make that offshore at our many embassies and you have a legal route to claim asylum, have that claim properly assesed, and if granted subsequently control the entry to the country (establish a suitable home for children/teens coming over here, properly house families etc). You can also turn people away. You then don't have as much of a question of whether or not anybody taking an illegal route into the country is or is not entitled to claim asylum once here.

(*I'm aware this should be covered under a family reuniting visa or whatever the specific title is, but if they don't have the relevant papers to fill this out do they have any other option? A genuine question as I don't know)

[delbert]

Or they've watched their family die in the war and are trying to make sure they don't face the same fate?

Or they've sent their family ahead of them away from the war and are now trying to get here to be reunited with them?*

Or they've been forced from a young age into a gang, committed crimes under duress, and have escaped that?

It's not quite as black and white as you seem to think here.

I've said before, I'm in favour of filtering out the chaff by offering a legal route to claim asylum here through asylum visas being available to apply for before they get to the UK. Currently that's not an option, they have to get here before they can claim asylum. Make that offshore at our many embassies and you have a legal route to claim asylum, have that claim properly assesed, and if granted subsequently control the entry to the country (establish a suitable home for children/teens coming over here, properly house families etc). You can also turn people away. You then don't have as much of a question of whether or not anybody taking an illegal route into the country is or is not entitled to claim asylum once here.

(*I'm aware this should be covered under a family reuniting visa or whatever the specific title is, but if they don't have the relevant papers to fill this out do they have any other option? A genuine question as I don't know)

All of which could be determined whilst they're being processed in the West Falklands*. I'm not sure the embassy route would be a starter, but worth a try, the problem's would be short staffed embassies simply rubber stamping an initial request and forwarding them to the UK where they'll just add to the backlog here.......

* The young criminal bit I'd be especially wary of, it could be a case that their own plod was getting close and they've had it on their toes. In any case, don't we (the government) have a duty of care to our existing citizens not to increase the criminal population and the threat that goes with it? A duty of care that should take priority over the well being of a known criminal?

[Eggchaser]

Is it odd I'd be most upset about the Texans?

Is that just until you know who they support?

What if they are ISIS/Jihadi supporting muslims?
or Le Penn supporting French?
or Bulgarian mafia?

would you still feel the same?
or would they all be undesirable?

[Crouchend_Hammer]

I'd say there is so much famine, war and tragedy in Africa and the Middle East we have become desensitised to it. Seeing it in a (sort of) European country against our "enemy" of the last half century plus is a little more worrying



But that comes back down to the debate in hand. Is protecting your border "Racist"? Immigrants come in all colours and creeds, but the ones coming by boat are black and middle eastern. It goes against all logic that having borders you police should not apply to people landing on boats on our coastline. But whenever the conversation turns to stopping that route, the automatic response ranges between inhuman and racist.

If I walk through an airport in many countries, I am not offended by passport and visa checks, but somehow it is outrageous to try to stop people smuggling across the channel.

Good post
I have no problem with any individual or group of people doing their utmost to get in to this country or any other. I cannot possiobly put myself in their position and know to what ends I would go to to seek a 'better life' for me and my family. I don't blame or demonise the individuals for doing what they think they need to do
There will be some 'wrong-uns' amongst this group, like there are 'wrong-uns' amongst every group of people.

Unfortunately, we cannot accomodate everyone who wants to try but that doesn't mean i am anti-immigration or a conscious racist (of course, we are all subjected to sub-concious biases that would likely be deemed 'racist' in some way)

[Loftyhammer]

Must admit I was stirred by the picture of the lovely Ms Braverman getting off her plane in Rwanda (where she is extolling the virtues of that particular policy) with her striking Union Jack hand luggage….so proud

[thamesideiron]

Caught a programme on TV other night,always try and watch if on...Saving lives at sea....
Eastbourne RNLIs guys and girls get a shout out....Dinghy Drifting some 10/12 miles off coast, no power some 30/35 people on board..
called in by a channel ferry..
They set off takes an hour or so to get there...Ferry has waited in vacinity for an easier spot for the crew..

When they get there,they find like said, 30 odd men women and children,in a totally overcrowded dinghy,drifting with the current,
totally helpless..
They Get the 5 kiddies on Board first..Ordering women and children first,youngest was about 3 I think,then 5/6 women then the
guys...wrap them in blankets,try and get them warm,give them water....talk to them, tell them they're safe now,we'll take care of you.
Get Them back to Eastbourne...ambulances and paramedics waiting..

Never been prouder to be a Brit....from the Ferry Standing by...to guys and girls going out to rescue and comfort these men women
and children....really chuffed..

However I see boatloads of 20/25 young Albanian guys,arriving on our shores last year and now this year...who are not refugees,
are not in danger,are here for financial reasons,who after a couple hours questioning,documents,proof of identity,where are you
heading to,any family,etc,all the usual..
Any failing to meet the critria of entry,would be offered the chance of a return flight,or take your chances in Rwanda..no ifs
buts or maybes.

Theres a huge huge difference in need in the people trying to enter our country.....We need to focus on those that need our help,
return those that don't ASAP......Not lump everyone together Lineker Style,and welcome everyone.

[Monkeybubbles]

Not lump everyone together Lineker Style,and welcome everyone.

You were doing so well.