SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:39 am
I think his point is that at the point people get on a dinghy in France they aren't fleeing the danger and persecution described in the post above his. They are fleeing France.
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a better system in place or that people shouldn't come here. However France is a safe country, it might not be the asylum seekers first choice but by the time they get to the channel they are well away from war zones and (hopefully) religious persecution.
Let's face it, even if there was a fantastic, extremely well run immigration/asylum/refugee centre in France, or even in all countries, how many people that 'failed' would then still go on to cross the channel in a dodgy dinghy?
Most, if not all of them, imo.
Hammer1966 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:52 am
They aren't fleeing France or any of the other 'safe' countries they passed through. They are travelling to the UK. And legally they have every right to. The reasons why they chose to do that are many and varied. You can keep saying they can stay in France. They'll keep doing what they see as being in their best interests. Just like you and I do. We just don't start from such a difficult jumping off point so it's never going to make sense to us. Empathy on the other hand is possible. And the UK government seem incapable of showing any.
I'm not saying they can just stay in France, I'm not sure any one has.
Personally I take your points but have trouble getting to grips with fleeing danger, reaching safety and then risking your life again. It probably just my natural cowardice.
Samba wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:55 am
Let's face it, even if there was a fantastic, extremely well run immigration/asylum/refugee centre in France, or even in all countries, how many people that 'failed' would then still go on to cross the channel in a dodgy dinghy?
Most, if not all of them, imo.
Exactly. I don't see this ever coming to an end :cry:
Samba wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:47 am
LBC's James 'Sh*t-Stirrer' O'Brien this morning with his loaded question: "Isn't it strange that no one complained about thousands of Ukrainians coming over here?"
Well James, ignoring your heart-felt desire for it to be for racist/colour/religious reasons, perhaps it was mainly because almost all of those Ukrainians fully intend to go back home asap one day & not stay just because they fancied coming & living here because it's nicer than where they live.
SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:08 pm
I'm not saying they can just stay in France, I'm not sure any one has.
Personally I take your points but have trouble getting to grips with fleeing danger, reaching safety and then risking your life again. It probably just my natural cowardice.
I don't think cowardice is a factor. Probably more desperation. Totally from a personal perspective, I left home in my early 20s, took a boat to Holyhead and a train to London and stayed with an Aunt and Uncle off Mare St. I spoke the language, recognised most of the food and had people who loved me to look after me. I still find it one of the hardest things I've ever done to this day. I stuck with it for lots of reasons (pride, stubborness, not wanting to go back and show people I failed). Motivation is a wholly personal thing and trying to apply a blanket reasons to everyone who leaves home and attempts to make a life abroad is futile. Would I have got in a dingy and crossed the Channel? Not based on where I was coming from and leaving behind, no. But I can understand the motivation to want to do better, to go somewhere else because what I have is **** and I can see no future for me where I am. I was just lucky I could pay a fare, get on a ferry and legally live in London for the last 30 odd years.
Samba wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:55 am
Let's face it, even if there was a fantastic, extremely well run immigration/asylum/refugee centre in France, or even in all countries, how many people that 'failed' would then still go on to cross the channel in a dodgy dinghy?
Most, if not all of them, imo.
I think it would stop the illegal trade overnight, because people arriving by boat would then be unable to claim Asylum because there would be a safe & legal route.
If they came any other way they could be immediately deported no argument
No, of course not but that has been the widely held belief in the media. It's also not at all hard to imagine that it's largely true.
I mean, some may end up wanting to stay here & would have to be assessed as to if they can.
old fart wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:30 pm
I think it would stop the illegal trade overnight, because people arriving by boat would then be unable to claim Asylum because there would be a safe & legal route.
If they came any other way they could be immediately deported no argument
Well yes, exactly.
So, get on & build those centres so that people in genuine need to come here, can do so.
Hammer1966 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:22 pm
But I can understand the motivation to want to do better, to go somewhere else because what I have is **** and I can see no future for me where I am. Yes but that alone, does not mean that someone can live in any country that they want to.
Someone might want to live in Jersey or Guernsey but bloody good luck achieving that if all you've got is 'the motivation to want to do better, to go somewhere else because what I have is **** and I can see no future for me where I am.' You've either got to marry someone from there or be disgustingly wealthy. You can't just rock up because the weather's nicer there.
I was just lucky I could pay a fare, get on a ferry and legally live in London for the last 30 odd years.
Yes, you were lucky H, as most of us born here were/are. There's a lot of luck in some lives.
And yes, little or none in other's.
Samba wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:48 pm
Yes, you were lucky H, as most of us born here were/are. There's a lot of luck in some lives.
And yes, little or none in other's.
I used to tease my dear old mum, who was born in Limerick, when she complained about immigrants ( black ones although not specified)) and that we should send them all home l use to offer to go and pack her suitcase for her.
old fart wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:00 pm
I used to tease my dear old mum, who was born in Limerick, when she complained about immigrants ( black ones although not specified)) and that we should send them all home l use to offer to go and pack her suitcase for her.
Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:46 am
Blame del. He took us to the classic idea that asylum seekers shouldn't make it here because there are other safe countries to go through.
I didn't, and even if I did, what'd be wrong in that idea? It's a classic.
Hammer1966 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:10 am
It's unbelievable human misery and the UK government are complicit in it.
Complicit through incompetence, which in my humble opinion isn't as bad as being deliberately complicit, my order of complicity, worse to least:
1. The people smugglers. For obvious reasons.
2. The UN. For their total uselessness.
3. The EU / Germany. For inviting one and all and having no idea what to do with them.
4. The French. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63728830
5. Care 4 Calais, and other similar organisations. For encouraging the migrants to chance their luck due to either an agenda (open border nutters and the like) or a misguided belief they're helping.
6. Our government. For it's total incompetence in dealing with this.
7. The migrants themselves. Remember them? The adult ones can't just stay blameless, they have also made choices to be where they are.
I agree with the approach someone else posted earlier. Have bona fide legal application routes, then anyone not following that is deported.
I'm not saying race plays a part here, as I think it is just a difference in circumstance. But if the government rolled out the same 'take in a Ukrainian' programme but for all asylum seekers, I'd be interested to see what the uptake would be.
Hammer1966 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:22 pm
I don't think cowardice is a factor. Probably more desperation. Totally from a personal perspective, I left home in my early 20s, took a boat to Holyhead and a train to London and stayed with an Aunt and Uncle off Mare St. I spoke the language, recognised most of the food and had people who loved me to look after me. I still find it one of the hardest things I've ever done to this day. I stuck with it for lots of reasons (pride, stubborness, not wanting to go back and show people I failed). Motivation is a wholly personal thing and trying to apply a blanket reasons to everyone who leaves home and attempts to make a life abroad is futile. Would I have got in a dingy and crossed the Channel? Not based on where I was coming from and leaving behind, no. But I can understand the motivation to want to do better, to go somewhere else because what I have is **** and I can see no future for me where I am. I was just lucky I could pay a fare, get on a ferry and legally live in London for the last 30 odd years.
With respect thats not really the same thing at all as fleeing in fear of your life or safety. Yours is more comparable with economic migration that asylum seeking.
And yes, those poor people that drowned in the freezing channel this week, even whether they deserved to be here or not, was an absolute tragedy, as all the 'crossing deaths' have been.
I hope they are resting in peace now.
SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:49 pm
With respect thats not really the same thing at all as fleeing in fear of your life or safety. Yours is more comparable with economic migration that asylum seeking.
I'm well aware what my situation was. I was using it to compare motivation.
SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:55 pm
Is a search for a better life on its own enough to be granted asylum?
Right or wrong you can't just decide to live somewhere and just rock up without clearance to do so.
Don't think anyone is suggesting the UK should grant asylum in those circumstances but us flabby liberals would like to believe we were hospitable to any refugee who needed asylum and that we took our fair share. We should be a rich enough nation to do that
SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:55 pm
Is a search for a better life on its own enough to be granted asylum?
It depends on what it was that made your life **** in the first place. The mixing of migrant, economic migrant, asylum seeker and the non-existent 'illegal asylum seeker' much favoured by the right into a giant dingy tend to make discussions about this topic like platting fog. I'd wager the majority of people coming across in boats have been people for whom the motivation has been to escape an unbelievably horrific life and to look for something better. My point (you can argue it was clumsily made) was that this motivation is a huge driver and can push you to do things you didn't think were possible and the worse your starting point the harder you'll try and the more desperate your position becomes (hence the exploitation).That's why I think a lot of people get in boats that have the potential to kill them.