CCR4: Everton 4-1 West Ham Utd (30/09/20)

[wivenhoetim]

we did not make subs last night due to appearance fees - simple - it already cost us to fly up there why spend more when we are not progressing.

..Because at 1-1 or even 2-1 we had every chance of progressing..
Much more likely appearance fees, which as I said constitutes to Sullivan asking for the game to be thrown., Whatever it is , its a ****ing disgrace.

[mattyD]

Something very odd about last night - we were never gonna win with a midfield of Snods, Noble and Lanzini. Soucek should have been on at half time - and if he was being rested then what was he doing on the bench? Not one sub. 2-1 down and they'd had three go off, if we'd gone for it then we may have done something.... but not one sub. That is insane. Something stinks.

[Graza]

But we somehow managed to stay in it. He could have made a triple change and gone for it in the final 25 minutes. Appreciate he has to look at the bigger picture as manager.

But the gamble could have paid off if he actually attempted trying to finish with a team that could win it.

Moyes...

Make subs...

With more than 10 minutes left?

What parallel universe is this.

In all seriousness if he'd rolled the dice and freshened the legs on 60 minutes maybe this discussion is all very different.

[chigwells finest]

Something very odd about last night - we were never gonna win with a midfield of Snods, Noble and Lanzini. Soucek should have been on at half time - and if he was being rested then what was he doing on the bench? Not one sub. 2-1 down and they'd had three go off, if we'd gone for it then we may have done something.... but not one sub. That is insane. Something stinks.

stinks of cowardice imo

[uptonparkhurst]

I thought we were very poor.

The only player with pace in the team was unfortunately our worst player.

The rest of the team looked like a bunch of plodders. This especially applied to deep midfield and the right hand side.

We'd have had a far better chance with energy and pace in that team - we looked like we had neither. Masuaku looks 3 times more dangerous as a left wing-back than Anderson does as a left winger. Johnson, though he looks fairly solid defensively, isn't cut out to be an attacking full-back. He has very poor acceleration which means he can't really break free. He never looks entirely comfortable higher up the pich either. I still reckon Ashby would have caused more problems - I really like the look of him. He's the opposite of Johnson really, ie looks a bit suspect defensively but has a great acceleration, pace and looks well up for it when he gets forward.

Haller... well I'm sure he's a decent technical player, but he simply can't bring to the frontline what Antonio brings... and that's quite simply why he's not playing at the moment. I'm not sure I'm a believer in changing a system simply to accomodate one player. Moyes has his system and if Antonio fits that system better then he plays. Simple as that really.

Yarmolenko, Snodgrass, and Noble looked like a trio of unfit plodders, wheezing their way through the match.

Rice was wasted in defence but I guess we didn't have a lot of choice thanks to the wonderful lack of squad depth we've built up. Could have been a disaster playing Balbuena and a kid together - although in hindsight it wouldn't have mattered anyway as it was a disaster anyway. I can understand why we didn't go 3-4-3... we didn't want to risk the only left wing-back we have and the only solid central defender we have.

One thing it did show yesterday was that Moyes's first team for the league matches is probably spot on.

Agree with most of that.

I think some people are hoodwinking themselves,believing that because we got back to 1-1 we could have gone on to win.
Everton dominated the match and hardly ever let us work the ball through the middle.We always end up working the ball wide
and hoofing it into the middle where defenders are lined up waiting to head it clear.Zero penetration without Antonio in the
team.
Everton moved the ball quickly,they got at our CB's 1 on 1 on the break,they played neat one-twos on the edge of the box,they created overloads out wide,yaddah,yaddah,yaddah.Most importantly,perhaps - they wer forced into 3 substitions but
the players they bought on were all solid and dependable.

[sendô]

Well that was worth £50k.

[Cockneyboy311]

When does the FA Cup start?!

[Adrianisournumber1]

When does the FA Cup start?!

Started on 31st August

[Cellar-door]

I also thought Snodgrass had a really good game last night, unlike Noble he can pick a pass and give it a whack when he gets the opportunity.

I've got no problem playing him next to Rice and Soucek in the middle if it's needed. Now he's getting on a bit I think he's better there anyway.

With Rice and Soucek I think he'd probably be fine.
Last night in their role he was abysmal. Don't let the goal fool you any more than the assist meant Anderson played well. Snodgrass didn't make a genuine defensive play in 90 minutes, and he did very little in terms of what you want from a CM in attack aside from the run of play around the goal. He played like he was a winger in attack, and like a light breeze in defense.

For all the poor performances, that match was lost in the Noble/Snodders midfield combination, we had a gaping hole in the middle of the field, and put no pressure at all on their attackers. The second goal was a great example, Everton came down the middle as Snodgrass and Noble never got within shouting distance of an attacker, before they got an uncontested shot away. The first goal was a similar lack of any defending in midfield as their player set up a long chip because he was in acres of space.

I like Snodgrass, and it isn't his fault he was played in a position he has neither the physical capabilities or the experience to play, but he was still awful, and he and Noble destroying any shape we had in both directions was a primary driver of our failures.

[Johnny_C WHU]

With Noble and Snodgrass in the middle we are asking for trouble. Why does Moyes not see this? Where was Wilshere out of interest?

I don't think we was too bad considering the strength of the Everton team, I think 4-1 flattered them. That said, it is clear four at the back doesn't work, Noble and Snodgrass in the middle doesn't work, Anderson doesn't work and Rice as centre back didn't work.

I thought Haller looked really good and was chasing down a lot in the game. gutted that overhead kick didn't go in, showed real quality.

[TheHandOfDog]

I really hate this claim that we "threw" the cup. It happens every season.

We played a weakened team, because sadly, the cup is not a priority. Something I do not agree with.

But do you honestly think we "threw" it.

At 2-1 down, Everton had 3 forced changes and we could have brought on our key players for 30mins to try and change the tie. WE DID THROW IT this time, 100%. Not even a question, if you don't see that, get glasses.

[psychoscoredthelot]

the cups are just a distraction from the real objective and that is to stay on the premier league gravy train as long as possible to keep sucking on the tv money teat and siphoning off as much as possible

[hammerman11]

sullivan is happy today as we are out of one cup just one to go !

awful team with the four wasters up top in front of the walking footballers . no chance and we all knew it at kick off.

onto leicester and our fight to stay up ! next level ?

[hawkins_hammer]

That game was one huge argument for why we shouldn't have sold Grady Diangana.

[honkytonk]

We were crap. All the talk of players needing a chance to prove themselves to Moyes.... they had it last night and blew it. No one did anything to show Moyes is making a mistake not picking them.

[Cellar-door]

That game was one huge argument for why we shouldn't have sold Grady Diangana.

To an extent... but far more it was one huge argument for why we shouldn't have sold all out CM over the years without replacing any of them. Grady might have added some liveliness on the wing, but the black hole that was the center of our formation would have remained.

We have arguably 2 PL quality CM on the squad (if you want to argue Wilshere when fit, sure... 3 for 2-3 weeks a season). After that we have...
1. Noble- who absolutely can't play CM or DM at this level anymore, you can get by with him in AM free role when surrounded by other midfielders with pace, but even that is shaky.
2. Snodgrass- a winger who has neither the experience, nor the skills (physical and mental) to play DM/CM at this level
3- Cullen- A fringe youngster whose experience is all at League One or the bottom of the Championship.

That's egregious.
It starts in 17/18
Nordveit hadn't worked out so off he went.. with no real CM/DM replacement

18/19
Kouyate goes out, and also Fernandes goes out on loan
In comes WIlshere and Sanchez... ok, that looks like a plan, one DM/CM out, get a young player experience, bring in two experienced DM/CM, one more defensive, one more creative.....
Wilshere is constantly injured, Sanchez blows out a knee and is never the same (which wasn't great, but going from below average to incompetent is big)

19/20
Ok, Wilshere can't be trusted, Sanchez is broken, time to start bringing in CM right.......
Nope, out goes Fernandes....
Ok, shorthanded, but maybe we can get by with Rice, Noble, Wilshere, Sanchez and Obiang as Pelle claims we can

oops, Sullivan sells off Obiang our 2nd best CM at the last moment to pay some debt, and despite Pelle's claims a week earlier that Obiang would only go if he was replaced... no replacement allowed.

So now it's 1 DM, 1 broken DM, 1 perma-crocked CM, and one aging CM.
Not shockingly it's a disaster. So we add a good CM in January... hooray, still barebones.

Now it is another window. Sanchez is gone, Wilshere is on his way out, Noble looks to finally have nothing left..... and we're pushing forward with repurposed 33 year old wingers and dodgy youth.

[sutts07]

Still fuming about the total lack of respect we viewed this game with.

Should have played our first choice back three and wing backs with Rice and Soucek in the middle.
Give them all another game together in that system.

Still could have used Randolph, Yarmolenko, Haller and Anderson. But we would have at least given ourselves a chance.

Balbuena and Rice at the back??
Sondgrass and Noble in the middle...!!!???

I thought I'd calmed down, need to log back off for another day....

[Humbug]

We lost that game mainly because we have 3 players who 'won't /can't' tackle and defend (ie. Lanzini , Anderson, Yarmolenko ) , two 33 year olds in midfield who can't run, a young right back who needs a whole season on loan, a left back who has been average since his knee injury a few seasons ago , Rice who is looking knackered after a seasons battle getting us out of the relegation mire, and a forward who has the gait of a lumbering hippo but is a good finisher in the box (ie. not a fox but a hippo in the box). We can't support Haller's style of play because we are so weak in depth and have no choice but to plug gaping defensive weaknesses.

[HammerInMaryland]

My problems were two fold - yes we did not make subs, that was an issue, but why didn't we line up 3-4-3. Where was Alese? Where was Ashby? Think we could have done some business if we lined up:

-----------Randolph----------------
---Balbuena-Rice-Alese----------
Ashby-Noble-Snodgrass-Johnson
----Yarmo-Haller-Anderson------

Lanzini not only does not tackle, he turns the ball over constantly.

[GreenIron]

Just brought myself to watch the [ahem] highlights for the first time. Yeah, yeah, I know it's just highlights but ...

Their first goal: ****ing genius. But who let Calvert-Lewin run away from him and take down a high ball under no pressure? Yep, Declan.

Second goal (ours): we're level thanks to Yarmo, Anderson and Snodinho.

Their second: dodgy deflection. Would have beaten any keeper.

Their third. Calvert-Lewin again. He reacted. Our **** defence didn't. Closest player to him: a static Declan.

Their fourth: Calvert-Lewin hat-trick. Good goal. No complaints. Er, but, closest player to him again: Declan.

I'm not even going to describe Lanzini and Haller's various efforts on goal which on a luckier day would have gone in.

From memory, I've never dissed one of our players on this forum and I'm not going to start now. What I take from this?

1. We're actually not that bad.

2. The narrative of this player or that player is total **** just isn't true.

3. Declan might, in theory, be able to play as a central defender but, like anybody, if he doesn't have real world practice there, he's going to struggle.

4. We're not getting relegated - which I'm happy with for once. YMMV.

[Disclaimer: I know f*** all about football.]