Gareth Southgate.

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asters89
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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by asters89 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:40 am

Ironing Board wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:16 am
Perhaps statistically, but Sir Bobby, El Tel, Hoddle and even Sven were all better for me. The devil is in the details, as I feel Gareth is blessed with the best squad and the easiest draws. Can you see Southgate beating Brazil where Sven didn’t?
Compare this squad with the squad we had going into the 2010 World Cup and the hype about a golden generation. Rio, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, Ashley Cole. This squad isn't better. The 2021 squad might look better because they've achieved more and have found a way of playing that works but no way are the players better on paper.

Fair play to Southgate, a central midfield partnership of a west ham and leeds player is something that would have got you laughed out of the pub a couple of years ago, but it's carried us all the way to the final. 7 games played, 2 conceded, one being a worldy free kick and the other being a scrappy corner.

People can talk all they want about Southgate getting decisions wrong on the night, but there is no way your Svens, Hoddles and Capellos start all the games with a Rice Phillips midfield and leave Henderson out.

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szola
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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by szola » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:42 am

pablo jaye wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:35 am
2018 - semi final
2020/1 - final

I reckon this is a work in progress.

I am particularly impressed by what he has done with the defence who are a far greater whole than the sum of the parts. 2 goals conceded in the whole tournament.

Deckers and Phillips are a big part of this and I wouldn’t be surprised if a few more teams adopt this tactic.
Spot on.
You win finals by not conceding.

At the moment, England is the best national side out there, even if losing the final. The world Cup semi and Euro final shows the level they play on.

Will be a very interesting World Cup

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by jacko » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:43 am

He's a really likeable guy but he is cautious and has been throughout the tournament. He has built great cohesion within the squad. I do think he got it wrong last night. Took way too long to make a change - the goal was clearly coming. He is also a lucky manager - lucky to get the job and to have two major tournaments with pretty good draws.

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Billy Hunt
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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Billy Hunt » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:51 am

Hats off to him, taking us to the final, after the semis at the world cup. That record says he deserves to carry on and continuity is important.

He's a very likeable guy, has generated a fantastic team spirit and came up with a formula that allowed the team to progress in the competition.

Last night we came up against the best team in the tournament, worthy winners - and it had to go to penalties for them to win it.

For me he got the starting line-up right, first half of the first half we were very dominant and Italy looked ragged. But when they adjusted we didn't other than retreat into and try to hang on. Is it right that Kane never got a touch in their box ? That says so much sadly, and not about Kane who in the first half was very good.

His mantra is not to lose, and the chances will come to win. That was our failing last night and he said as much in an interview when asked whether he should have made another attacking substitution by stating 'but we could have lost if we had done that' or something similar - similarly we could have won. And we did lose.

The substitutions he made were baffling - Henderson for Rice when Rice was the dominant midfielder ? A very nervous Saka against that Italian defence ? I don't see either of those subs as game changers and him going for a win, but sticking to his mantra and hoping Saka may be able to break free.

As for bringing on two of his chosen penalty takers in the 120th minute, when he hasn't believed in either of them enough to play them in the tournament, brave but foolish that IMO. Neither had enough time to get into the game, both had the world on their shoulders as this was their chance. And I make Roy Keane right about those who sat back and let a 19 year old nervous kid take the vital fifth penalty, which will always be a vital one, bad form that. I admire the kid for having the courage to take it.

Southgate should learn from this though, and there's a great crop of players there that can help this team move forward.

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smuts
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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by smuts » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:01 am

As much as I dislike Keane he was dead right about the penalties. Full credit to the 3 who missed as they had the minerals to step up and take them, especially Saka. You needed someone more senior to take the responsibility there.

For me it's always more about the ones who don't step up.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:12 am

smuts wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:01 am
As much as I dislike Keane he was dead right about the penalties. Full credit to the 3 who missed as they had the minerals to step up and take them, especially Saka. You needed someone more senior to take the responsibility there.

For me it's always more about the ones who don't step up.
I was very surprised John Stones and Luke Shaw did not take one
Both very experienced, both very good technically.
It is a fallacy that strikers and attackers should always be the best penalty takers.
You need calmness, composure under pressure and technique in terms of kicking a football. That is not the same as being able to dribble a ball, pick a pass or even finish instinctively in a one on one situation

If anything wingers and very skilful tippy tappy players who rely on speed and instinct often make the worst penalty takers

Full backs are usually ideal as they can drill a dead ball as well as anyone and are often pretty composed

Trippier should have been left on for that very reason

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StevePottsGoalsReel
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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by StevePottsGoalsReel » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:24 am

asters89 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:40 am
Compare this squad with the squad we had going into the 2010 World Cup and the hype about a golden generation. Rio, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, Ashley Cole. This squad isn't better. The 2021 squad might look better because they've achieved more and have found a way of playing that works but no way are the players better on paper.
Agree with all this.

Also, as a footnote to last night, I thought it said so much that at half-time both Rio and Lampard were pretty much crowning England champions already. They could not see any possible way in which Italy could come back in to the game. At one point Lampard said "there's just no way this Italian side can hurt England". No surprise that he failed as a manager with that attitude!

Just remarkable that they still haven't learned anything from all their own failures at international level. Bet they think Hubris is a full-back from Greece.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by DasNutNock2 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:50 am

Bad day at the office yesterday. They happen, not the end of the world. Been a great campaign and went so close, but Southgate deserves a crack at the World Cup next year

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Denzil » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:01 am

I was critical of him but ate humble pie and he has won me over. He has a very good but very young squad of players that will grow from this experience. The main take away for me is the squad togetherness and harmony that has been instilled by Southgate.

I do feel that he shackles some of our best talent a little but he's gotten us to a World Cup Semi & Euro final, so who am I to suggest he should set up differently.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by e17 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:03 am

smuts wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:01 am
As much as I dislike Keane he was dead right about the penalties. Full credit to the 3 who missed as they had the minerals to step up and take them, especially Saka. You needed someone more senior to take the responsibility there.

For me it's always more about the ones who don't step up.
He might be right, but it takes some serious nerve for a man who flounced off when his national team needed him at an international tournament because he couldn’t get on with the manager to be chastising players for not stepping up to take a penalty in a European championship final.

Mick McCarthy must sit there laughing when he hears the bloke giving it the big one.

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e17
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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by e17 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:16 am

DasNutNock2 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:50 am
Bad day at the office yesterday. They happen, not the end of the world. Been a great campaign and went so close, but Southgate deserves a crack at the World Cup next year
Easy to forget it’s still a learning curve for everyone involved at this level.

As Pinky rightly says, he now needs to study and work out what Plan B is when going forward. Defensively, we’re ridiculously good - almost Germanic in how organised and difficult to break down we are.

Offensively, Harry Kane almost represents an island in himself. Any squad that only goes with him & DCL as options upfront is going to struggle over 6 or 7 matches of this level of pressure.

Sadly it’s wrong player at the wrong time, but if we’d had a Vardy to bring on last night, we’d have won that in full time. Italy’s brilliant but slow back 2 would have been done with an injection of pace in the middle.

Brilliant defence, endless and slightly confusing overload of tricky creative players - Sancho, Foden & Saka are all fantastic but all offered the same outlet really - Grealish is a decent impact sub but ridiculously over-rated by the Twitter crowd because he wins set pieces - but ZERO alternatives to Harry Kane

I felt for Sterling last night, as I think he was our player of the tournament & never stopped running at them yet again - but there was no outlet for him

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Jumby » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:30 am

It's a shame there wasn't a summer World Cup two years later after this, Qatar is going to be a weird one.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by szola » Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:16 am

Before Southgate took over England went out in:

2016 Euros - Iceland proved to be a too large obstacle in the first knock out game
2014 World Cup - Group Stage as Costa Rica and Uruguay proved to be too strong. Same with Italy
2012 Euros - Italy in the QF, on penalties...
2010 World Cup - were blown away by Germany in the first knock out game
2008 Euros - Did not qualify

England haven't lost a competitive game in 90min in the last two tournaments, bar against Belgium.
That is how teams eventually win silverware. They don't lose.

Imo England will win a tournament within 10 years, if they have the will to keep this project going.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Muddy » Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:36 am

szola wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:16 am
Before Southgate took over England went out in:

2016 Euros - Iceland proved to be a too large obstacle in the first knock out game
2014 World Cup - Group Stage as Costa Rica and Uruguay proved to be too strong. Same with Italy
2012 Euros - Italy in the QF, on penalties...
2010 World Cup - were blown away by Germany in the first knock out game
2008 Euros - Did not qualify

England haven't lost a competitive game in 90min in the last two tournaments, bar against Belgium.
That is how teams eventually win silverware. They don't lose.

Imo England will win a tournament within 10 years, if they have the will to keep this project going.
This right here is what people seem to forget. Never in my life did i think i would see England in a final, let alone be a spot kick or two away from winning it.
Let's just hope our shithouse media doesn't decide to do a number on Garath and the squad after all the hard work that's been done.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Believer » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:02 pm

StevePottsGoalsReel wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:24 am


Also, as a footnote to last night, I thought it said so much that at half-time both Rio and Lampard were pretty much crowning England champions already. They could not see any possible way in which Italy could come back in to the game. At one point Lampard said "there's just no way this Italian side can hurt England". No surprise that he failed as a manager with that attitude!

Just remarkable that they still haven't learned anything from all their own failures at international level. Bet they think Hubris is a full-back from Greece.
That is very interesting. I never heard that as was too busy sorting out drinks etc at HT but even our lot said at HT that Italy would change it up and wouldn’t have 2 poor halves of football. This Italian team weren’t going to give up after 45 mins

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by sutts07 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:21 pm

Southgate is coming along nicely in his role and to give him credit, he got a lot right this tournament.
He has made some big calls and taken us to within a few inches of a major trophy (if Rashford scores, we win).

He will no doubt have learned a lot from that too though.
I felt like he accommodated Mount a bit in his formation for the final. Rice and Philips were fine in front of a back three, Grealish or Saka could have played in the advanced left role.
I also think we were slow to react to the way the game changed and could/should have gone to a back four sooner and taken the game to them a lot more.
I am not a fan of putting players on just to take a pen, that debate can rumble on. If Rashford and Sancho both step up and belt one into the net like Kane and Maguire did, it is justified.

I felt that Mancini had the better of him, more experience on the sideline and on the pitch is what pulled Italy through.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Beavis Danzig » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:33 pm

i really like southgate as a bloke and perhaps his natural conservative nature is well suited to seeing us actually stay in tournaments long enough to enjoy it, but i still feel like we're lacking what we've lacked for a generation, and that's a big tournament win against one of the best teams in it.

we can pretend that was germany, but i think we know deep down that they are a past it squad on the edge of a full rebuild. had we taken down france, belgium, portugal or spain on the way to the final i think i'd have felt similar to how most others seem to be about this tournament.

we ran the italians close though, and they'd been the best team since the opening fixtures.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by GPW » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:59 pm

PlaistowIron wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:23 am
He took the job on when the relationship between the national team and the English fans was at an all time low.
That made it a perfect fit for his skills. He is likeable, decent and good with the media. He has honed the team in that same style to show a togetherness and team spirit. The got within a penalty kick or two of winning. He and they deserve great credit for that. Let's hope they can build on that.

However Southgate needs to grow as a manager too. The really top managers know how to make the big calls quickly and proactively during a game. He either doesn't or doesn't trust enough of his squad to use them do that. We needed to stretch the game in the second half and add some pace. Kane either needed a strike partner next to him or to be replaced by a much faster player to create space for others behind him. We dropped too deep and ended up playing the game in too compact a space. It's a squad game these days but he really only used 2 of the 6 subs available (ignoring the cameos at end of et) so he needs to figure out how to get strength in depth and use it properly. The penalty choices (young, cold players, not regular takers) were bizarre. Some of the more seasoned players need to take a look in the mirror and Southgate needs to think through whether some of them can be counted on when it matters. Our squad is decent but not world beaters so the manager needs to squeeze every last ounce out it so he needs to learn and improve too.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Hockley Hammer » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:36 pm

sutts07 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:21 pm
Southgate is coming along nicely in his role and to give him credit, he got a lot right this tournament.
He has made some big calls and taken us to within a few inches of a major trophy (if Rashford scores, we win).
He will no doubt have learned a lot from that too though.
I felt like he accommodated Mount a bit in his formation for the final. Rice and Philips were fine in front of a back three, Grealish or Saka could have played in the advanced left role.
I also think we were slow to react to the way the game changed and could/should have gone to a back four sooner and taken the game to them a lot more.
I felt that Mancini had the better of him, more experience on the sideline and on the pitch is what pulled Italy through.
I totally agree with all your points. Ironically I don't think one of Italy's substitutions was done to try to win the game, but to stop us winning which is a bit of a compliment for a team unbeaten in 30 odd games.

I agree with you about Rashford's penalty too. I was sure Pickford would save at least one probably two of their penalties. I thought as he walked up that he scores we will win. Small margins.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by DrVenk » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:48 pm

Beavis Danzig wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:33 pm
but i still feel like we're lacking what we've lacked for a generation, and that's a big tournament win against one of the best teams in it.

we can pretend that was germany, but i think we know deep down that they are a past it squad on the edge of a full rebuild. had we taken down france, belgium, portugal or spain on the way to the final i think i'd have felt similar to how most others seem to be about this tournament.
This bugs me too and I think it is key to get that belief that we are more than also rans.

That win against Germany though, whilst I agree they are not the team they were, it's still a notable step forward. In knock out stages historically we have struggled against the likes of Equador and Iceland, so to get over that one psychological block, i.e. beating the Germans in a tournament, I think that something that will feed into our confidence in the World Cup.

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