Gareth Southgate.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Ironing Board » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:05 am

ironilunga wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:59 am

Funnily enough I belatedly just saw a sketch featuring a rather aged Delboy wishing the team luck and offering the advice ‘he who dares wins Gareth’. It seem quite prophetic now.
Everyone though England had Danny Driscoll in the dugout… but it turned out to be Mickey Pearce!

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by westham,eggyandchips » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:40 am

A lot of assumption flying about that we'll do well next year in Qatar.

Don't bank on it. Lots of other countries will improve and with the hype surrounding certain players (again) rather than actually seeing them do the business on the pitch we could very easily come unstuck.

We done really well to reach a final and that should never be taken lightly, but personally and now the dust has settled, I don't think Southgate is all that.

I said earlier in the tournament that it's better to be lucky than good, well I reckon he definitely falls into that category.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by the pink palermo » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:04 am

Has done a good job.

He conducts himself well, and expects , and gets the same from his players. I cannot remember the last time England played in a major tournament and the Red tops had nothing to put on their front pages other than the score of the game.

He has achieved decent results, which, in tournament football means staying in the competition as long as possible. A semi final and a final in consecutive tournaments is good.

He has cast his net wider than his predecessors, offering hope to a broader base of players, which in turn increases the potential talent pool from which he can select : players no longer feel they are better off sitting in Man City's reserves than playing for Aston Villa for example.

The negatives are he has a risk averse approach to winning games which paradoxically increases the risk of defeat. A second first half goal on Sunday evening would have killed the Italians off. Instead, he gave them time to regroup, rethink, and seize the initiative. Southgates safety first approach will only take you so far, he needs to accept who dares wins, and risk defeat to gain a victory.

The truth is the worst position to finish in any sport is second. As well as Southgate and his team have done he needs somebody in his camp, in his backroom team, a quiet but influential voice that has won something, a champion. It's the difference between the good and the great.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Billy Hunt » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:27 am

the pink palermo wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:04 am
Has done a good job.

He conducts himself well, and expects , and gets the same from his players. I cannot remember the last time England played in a major tournament and the Red tops had nothing to put on their front pages other than the score of the game.

He has achieved decent results, which, in tournament football means staying in the competition as long as possible. A semi final and a final in consecutive tournaments is good.

He has cast his net wider than his predecessors, offering hope to a broader base of players, which in turn increases the potential talent pool from which he can select : players no longer feel they are better off sitting in Man City's reserves than playing for Aston Villa for example.

The negatives are he has a risk averse approach to winning games which paradoxically increases the risk of defeat. A second first half goal on Sunday evening would have killed the Italians off. Instead, he gave them time to regroup, rethink, and seize the initiative. Southgates safety first approach will only take you so far, he needs to accept who dares wins, and risk defeat to gain a victory.

The truth is the worst position to finish in any sport is second. As well as Southgate and his team have done he needs somebody in his camp, in his backroom team, a quiet but influential voice that has won something, a champion. It's the difference between the good and the great.
Pretty much spot on for me and echoes my thoughts - although it' unlikely I'd have used the word paradoxically :newthumb:

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:49 am

Very good points in that post. Especially the value a conflicting voice (in terms of their approach to risk) may offer Southgate.

Wonder if Graeme Jones may prove to be that guy? He joined the set up late this time around so may have had a very specific role but his impact in the 2nd half of the season on a previously stodgy Newcastle side under Steve Bruce was superb.

If he can add some more attacking ideas to the base that Southgate and Holland have built over the last 4 years, we could be in for a fun couple of tournaments.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by ironilunga » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:25 am

the pink palermo wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:04 am
Southgates safety first approach will only take you so far, he needs to accept who dares wins, and risk defeat to gain a victory.
Really good post TPP.

What Southgate has built so far is a way for England to play which means they can qualify from a Euro or WC group stage/last 16 round. Southgate’s England will comfortably polish off a moderate to good international side.However, what his England hasn’t achieved is a way to properly control or dominate matches against the elite. This issue has been camouflaged in the past two tournaments by playing good or moderate teams in the latter stages of the tournament but only meeting elite teams in the semi or final.

On Sunday Italy had the eye of the tiger. They went for us and we stepped back. My heart sank when I saw Southgate’s lineup yet you back the man because he got us to the final. In reality it was an overly cautious line up, again camouflaged by an early lead, which we tried to hold on to all match.

I would keep Southgate on but he has an underlying stubbornness when it comes to his approach to games. All experts have said he is over cautious and he must listen.

Over the next few years Southgate will have to fully unleash Grealish, Foden, Sako et al and trust they are good enough. We must begin to show our attacking teeth against the best or we get knocked out next year in a QF against Argentina, France or Brazil.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Morocco Mole » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:46 am

neathiron wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:45 pm
I said it before the Germany game, if England beat them they would never get an easier chance to reach a final given how the draw opened up for them, and all their games bar one being at Wembley.
Even being Welsh I believed the hype this time around that 'Football was coming home'.
Italy were there for the taking last night, especially after England got the early goal. Although Italy played a bit better in the 2nd half, England definitely handed more impetus to them when Rice was taken off. I still fail to see what Henderson offers for club and country.
Just found it baffling with all the attacking talent on the bench at his disposal, why Southgate left it so late to make some of the other changes. Also if he was responsible for choosing the penalty takers, surely he would have realised two of the players he brought on had barely kicked a ball. Iirc Rashford went through a phase at Man U where he missed a few penalties, so that was a disaster waiting to happen.
Defensively England have been outstanding throughout the tournament. I just think letting attacking creative players sit too long on the sidelines was a wasted opportunity to win a major tournament.
Could be a lot more difficult to reach a final in the future. Also think the disgraceful scenes of people getting in to the stadium for free last night will have done England a lot of damage regarding hosting future tournaments.
Top post mate. Pinky and ironilunga too :thup:

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Daniel1895 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:10 pm

WC : 4th
NL : 3rd
EC : 2nd

WC up next year. Mark my words.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Billydinho » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:55 pm

For the life of me he made decisions on Sunday I still can’t work out.

Rice off for Henderson. Saka on rather than Grealish, Sancho or Rashford. Sancho seen as some penalty specialist. 19 year old Saka being given the deciding penalty.

I think about them all the time and I still have no idea what he was doing.

I’ve gotten over Mason Mount being on as long as he was despite being terrible as I know he’s one of Southgate’s favourites. I just don’t get the rest at all.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Samba » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:26 am

Billydinho wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:55 pm
For the life of me he made decisions on Sunday I still can’t work out.

Rice off for Henderson. Saka on rather than Grealish, Sancho or Rashford. Sancho seen as some penalty specialist. 19 year old Saka being given the deciding penalty.

I think about them all the time and I still have no idea what he was doing.

I’ve gotten over Mason Mount being on as long as he was despite being terrible as I know he’s one of Southgate’s favourites. I just don’t get the rest at all.
I agree, Billy. Like I said, before the game when I saw our line up & saw Mount in the front three, I thought wtf is he doing?
What got us into the final was not the right approach for the final - & yes, that is in hindsight.
Although for me, there had been a clear warning in the semi-final. We'd brought Grealish on for Saka in the 69th minute & then extra time which we controlled (iirc, Denmark could hardly get out of their half), culminating in Kane scoring just before the end of the first half.
Southgate then took Grealish off & put Trippier on; a clearly defensive move to protect the lead for the second half.
The result of doing that shocked me. Second half, WE could hardly get out of OUR half. I really thought Southgate might have f*cked it right up with that decision. They get a goal & it would have been the lottery of pens, if not worse.
Come the final, all the talk was about their ancient CB's & what they would be like up against our very fast, creative players.
Why tf didn't we then do that then?
I would also have had the penalty takers fully decided before the match started.
Southgate's penalty in 1996.
Southgate's decisions (inc penalty decisions) in 2021.
Full, f*cking circle.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Jumby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:45 am

Daniel1895 wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:10 pm
WC : 4th
NL : 3rd
EC : 2nd

WC up next year. Mark my words.
That World Cup is going to be a very tough and very weird one, I honestly don't know how it's going to go but I have a feeling that both Spain and France are going to be on it.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by TheHandOfDog » Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:24 am

Jumby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:45 am
That World Cup is going to be a very tough and very weird one, I honestly don't know how it's going to go but I have a feeling that both Spain and France are going to be on it.
In 16 months time, Rice/Mount/Grealish/Foden/Rashford/Sancho/Bellingham/TAA/James/Philips will all have improved with good experience gained already in a final.

I think we will do well, semi final+ would be fantastic again. I too agree that the WC will be really weird and might actually come at a good time for England, usually come summer our players are usually more tired, November tourney might actually benefit us?

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by westham,eggyandchips » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:04 am

Jumby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:45 am
That World Cup is going to be a very tough and very weird one, I honestly don't know how it's going to go but I have a feeling that both Spain and France are going to be on it.
Plus the Germans and most likely the Italians, Brazil and Argentina.

If we get to the semis and at the very least play one or two of the above along the way then yeah, massive :newthumb: to GS. I just don't see it at the moment.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Jon » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:11 am

Samba wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:26 am
I agree, Billy. Like I said, before the game when I saw our line up & saw Mount in the front three, I thought wtf is he doing?
What got us into the final was not the right approach for the final - & yes, that is in hindsight.
Although for me, there had been a clear warning in the semi-final. We'd brought Grealish on for Saka in the 69th minute & then extra time which we controlled (iirc, Denmark could hardly get out of their half), culminating in Kane scoring just before the end of the first half.
Southgate then took Grealish off & put Trippier on; a clearly defensive move to protect the lead for the second half.
The result of doing that shocked me. Second half, WE could hardly get out of OUR half. I really thought Southgate might have f*cked it right up with that decision. They get a goal & it would have been the lottery of pens, if not worse.
Come the final, all the talk was about their ancient CB's & what they would be like up against our very fast, creative players.
Why tf didn't we then do that then?
I would also have had the penalty takers fully decided before the match started.
Southgate's penalty in 1996.
Southgate's decisions (inc penalty decisions) in 2021.
Full, f*cking circle.
- this is where I am. :newthumb: He had the same approach against Germany. Nil nil for ages, brings Grealish on and we score twice. Saka for Mount who had trained separately. Would Mount have otherwise started??
We lost to Belgium twice in WC ‘18. Again in the nations league. Italy 65% possession on Sunday. We continue to struggle when we play decent sides. The inferiority complex remains despite a wealth of exciting talent.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Jumby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:01 am

I still don't think he knows his preferred eleven and I think this horses for courses thing that he appeared to do each game is a bit of a myth. That's taking nothing away from the achievement of reaching the final, it's just this notion that he's some tactically astute tinkering thinker, I think he's a bit enigmatic in that respect.

Centre half appears to be Stones and Maguire which is as decent as many you'll see at International level. Had Ferguson stayed on at Man Utd I really think that Smalling and Jones would have been England's equivalent to Chiellini and Bonucci, they were two of the main fall guys from the mess that came from Ferguson's departure.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by ironilunga » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:14 am

Billydinho wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:55 pm
I think about them all the time and I still have no idea what he was doing.
I don’t know what Rashford or Sancho’s history is with pens. However, I do question on a very basic level how ready a player can be for the biggest kick of their career when they have been sitting on the bench for 118 minutes and on the pitch for just two?

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Denzil » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:52 am

ironilunga wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:14 am
I don’t know what Rashford or Sancho’s history is with pens. However, I do question on a very basic level how ready a player can be for the biggest kick of their career when they have been sitting on the bench for 118 minutes and on the pitch for just two?
There is actually a real element of this too. I was of the opinion that you don't need to be 'warm' or in the game to take a penalty kick. It's a penalty. However the more I have thought about it, the more I have realised that this is indeed not the issue. The issue comes from the moment they're told to come on. They know they're coming on for one thing and one thing only. That can be the only thing on their minds as they are standing on the touchline waiting to come on. The other players in the game that will be taking one don't have time to think about their penalty yet, not in the depth that Rashford and Sancho would have anyway. There is nothing positive that can come from standing there thinking about the biggest kick in your career.

If Jonny Wilkinson had stood around for 5 mins before his conversion, having played no part in the game back in 2003, would he have made it? Possibly not either.

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Re: Gareth Southgate.

Post by Jon » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:35 pm

I’m guessing Sancho and Rashford knew prior to the game, they would be on pens.

Did they spend 120 minutes thinking about it??

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