Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

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StevePottsGoalsReel
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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by StevePottsGoalsReel » Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:58 pm

Doc H Ball wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:40 pm
Can I just point out re the storming of Wembley that nearly 100 years ago an estimated 100,000 did so, the majority were cockneys and it’s the stuff of legend.
A little more recently(!), but also happened at the Joey Cole FA Youth Cup Final where thousands pushed through the gates and there was nowhere near enough space for everyone.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by YorksHammer » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:24 pm

I've had a chance to let it settle in a bit. Think we should all be really proud of that team. Everyone seemed to give everything when on the pitch and, really, that's all we can ask for. But for a lucky break off of Pickford's save, I don't think Italy would have scored last night. We performed far better throughout this tournament than we did in 2018, and hopefully that's a sign that in 18 months we'll be looking towards having yet another strong tournament showing.

IF you want to be critical, we slipped too deep towards the end of the first half and into the second and, even after Italy scored, never got back out again until the second half of extra time. Needed to work out how to get out.

I also think the first two subs (Trippier for Saka and Rice for Henderson) were just plain wrong as they were our best two players on the pitch at the time. I get that Southgate was changing shape, but Walker for Henderson and Mount for Saka were the changes I would have expected - especially as Mount was basically a ghost during the second half, might as well have not been on the pitch.

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Re: Match #51 THE FINAL England v Italy. (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Morocco Mole » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:28 pm

MB wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:18 pm
But what is the alternative?
Put some forwards on the pitch?

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by White Goodman » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:28 pm

StevePottsGoalsReel wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:58 pm
A little more recently(!), but also happened at the Joey Cole FA Youth Cup Final where thousands pushed through the gates and there was nowhere near enough space for everyone.
The problem is just that some people are savages, haven't evolved properly.

Plenty of evidence over the years to show that action like this can result in people being crushed to death but it is hard to explain it to neanderthals.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Morocco Mole » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:34 pm

White Goodman wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:02 pm
Agreed but at some point individuals need to ****ing take responsibility for how they behave. I'm not going to open up the Hillsborough debate again but if people don't turn up without tickets and don't act like ***** this is all avoided regardless of whether the actions of authorities, ground staff make an evolving situation worse.

The message needs to be 'don't be a ****'
We are c**** though. The English I mean. It’s not a new phenomenon. Post COVID it was always going to be carnage. We’re a nation of barbarians.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Jumby » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:36 pm

Before the game there were naked men in the streets lighting flares out of their backsides, indecent exposure in the streets of London in broad daylight with youngsters about. Those images will have been seen by anyone of any importance in football, yesterday was an absolute PR disaster.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by White Goodman » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:38 pm

Morocco Mole wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:34 pm
We are ***** though. The English I mean. It’s not a new phenomenon. Post COVID it was always going to be carnage. We’re a nation of barbarians.
Yeah, I'm not expecting good behaviour :smiler: was just saying like

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by White Goodman » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:40 pm

Jumby wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:36 pm
Before the game there were naked men in the streets lighting flares out of their backsides, indecent exposure in the streets of London in broad daylight with youngsters about. Those images will have been seen by anyone of any importance in football, yesterday was an absolute PR disaster.
Yeah but it's all relative, June was Pride month, when there are parades with loads of blokes wearing hardly anything, yet we are told to get on board or we're homophobic.

Perhaps that's from where the ****hole flare lighters were taking inspiration?? :chin:

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Re: Match #51 THE FINAL England v Italy. (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by the pink palermo » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:43 pm

MB wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:18 pm
But what is the alternative?
Not to build a system for a team that is utterly dependent upon one player for whom we have no like for like cover.

But, if you decide you are going to do that make sure you have a different plan that requires different personnel.

The one major mistake in squad building that Southgate has made is in not pandering to Jamie Vardy's ego.

Vardy is a prima donna, another one trick pony, but arrogant enough to say to his team mates, play me every week or I can't be arsed.

Once GS made it clear it was always going to be Harry Kane - effectively England became the National Harry Kane team - and Vardy decided all the plane trips to sit on the bench was a pain in the arse, so he jacked it in.

The problem that left Southgate with was he had no back up to Carthorse Kane, and no alternative system either.

Personally I don't believe Antonio is true international quality, but he would at the very least have been an option. Southgate left himself with no options.

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Re: Match #51 THE FINAL England v Italy. (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by White Goodman » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:45 pm

the pink palermo wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:43 pm


Personally I don't believe Antonio is true international quality, but he would at the very least have been an option. Southgate left himself with no options.
I agree but that doesn't explain why he didn't even bother to try Calvert Lewin

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Jumby » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:49 pm

I found it a little odd that Calvert-Lewin never got a sniff, who are England's striker options now?

Kane
Calvert-Lewin
Ings
Rashford
Greenwood

I don't really know what the last two are but that appears to be the only options Southgate can turn to unless he has a look at Callum Wilson again or has another slight wobble and finds a Solanke type.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Het-Field » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:53 pm

I think it comes down to the 'something out of nothing' view that people have about Kane. Prolific strikers enjoy that reputation, and as a result can become a little untouchable. Robbie Keane had it for a long time in an Irish shirt. Bale, at times during the tournament might have been worthy of being substituted, but you take them out, you can cut off your nose to spite your face, in a way.

The difficulty for England is prolific strikers are in relatively short supply at the moment, and a long way from the 1990s when there was a plethora of them available, and it was almost an embarrassment of riches which meant Andy Cole probably received less caps than he might, or Ian Wright didn't attend the number of major tournaments he ought to.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Morocco Mole » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:03 pm

Morocco Mole wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Harry Kane is the best center forward in the world. None of the other top strikers can play 10 an 9 simultaneously like him and he was superb in the first half even yesterday. But the false 9 thing only really works if you play a possession game with attacking midfielders running around and beyond (Guardiola’s City). We had Sterling and Mount and then seven others playing a low block. The annoying thing is we pressed high up the pitch for the first 20 minutes and looked good. After the first goal we had a couple of counter attacks where we almost perceptively turned back and stopped trying to score. Almost like it was the last 5 minutes of the game not the first 20. Same as Croatia in 2018. Conservative mindset and it’s been there all the way through. Our squads better than theirs and we had hundreds of millions of pounds worth of players on the bench and blew it. That’s the truth.
Last edited by Morocco Mole on Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by MB » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:07 pm

Jumby wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:49 pm
I found it a little odd that Calvert-Lewin never got a sniff, who are England's striker options now?

Kane
Calvert-Lewin
Ings
Rashford
Greenwood

I don't really know what the last two are but that appears to be the only options Southgate can turn to unless he has a look at Callum Wilson again or has another slight wobble and finds a Solanke type.
Problem with Calvert-Lewin is he is Kane without the touch! Still a foil rather than an out and out striker so needs runners off him to get the best out of him and would have struggled just as much as Kane did last night but probably without the pass for our goal.

Basically looking at Ings or Vardy. Rashford and Greenwood both play wide for Man Utd and there is a reason they bought Cavani in.

I don’t disagree with PP that Southgate caused this, but if you take an Ings or Vardy then you need a proper plan b with other options from the bench and time to drill it. Southgate basically gambled that his one attacking system would work and for the most part it did. That one system probably meant he could drill the team within an inch of its life.

Southgate often talks about the limited time he gets with the players and I imagine this is part of his way of dealing with that. Plan A and plan B means less time getting plan A right.

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Re: Match #51 THE FINAL England v Italy. (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by 'stone hammer » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:20 pm

the pink palermo wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:43 pm


The problem that left Southgate with was he had no back up to Carthorse Kane, and no alternative system either.

Personally I don't believe Antonio is true international quality, but he would at the very least have been an option. Southgate left himself with no options.
I can't argue with the lack of options, but Kane a carthorse? The system Southgate plays does not allow any striker to shine particularly well.
When we played top opposition, we limit the opponent's chances and limit our own, and when a rare chance comes our way, Kane is who I want it to fall to; he's one of the best finishers I've ever seen and he has so much more to his game. He's the best striker we've had since Rooney and I think he will surpass him as Kane's game does not rely on pace or physique, he has a great mind for the game and the technique to execute it (diving aside).

However, if he's injured, or having an off day like he did in most of the group stage, we do need an alternative, but we don't have one that even comes close to an in form Kane.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Shabu » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:30 pm

Jumby wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:36 pm
Before the game there were naked men in the streets lighting flares out of their backsides,
This actually cracked me up. Are there any photos?

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by WestHamLyallStyle » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:38 pm

For me, we’ll only be real contenders if we impose our game on the opponents rather than reacting to how they line up.

That said, to get to a final was a damn good effort.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Morocco Mole » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:39 pm

Shabu wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:30 pm
This actually cracked me up. Are there any photos?
There’s videos mate. :)

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Beavis Danzig » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:46 pm

kane is the opposite of a big game player, it's long and storied (even by spurs supporters). he's filling rooney's boots by pumping his numbers against weaker opposition while not giving us what we need to win the games that really matter.

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Re: Match #51: THE FINAL England 1-1 (P) Italy (8pm, Sunday 11th July)

Post by Puff Daddy » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:46 pm

Jumby wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:36 pm
Before the game there were naked men in the streets lighting flares out of their backsides, indecent exposure in the streets of London in broad daylight with youngsters about. Those images will have been seen by anyone of any importance in football, yesterday was an absolute PR disaster.
I believe they were running round Tottenham

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