That penalty

All discussion relating to international tournaments including qualifying groups/matches. Since 2006.

Moderators :  chalks, Gnome, last.caress, Wilko1304, Rio, bristolhammerfc, the pink palermo

User avatar
Plashet Grove Pete
Posts: 2774
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:32 pm
Location: I'm riding down Kingsley, figurin' I'll get a drink ....
Has liked: 18 likes
Total likes: 25 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Plashet Grove Pete » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:20 am

I'm another in the Hurst, Dicks, Tonka camp - just hit it hard.

Like everything else in the game goalkeeping has moved on - I genuinely think trying to "fool" the keeper and side footing is much harder now than 30 - 40 years ago. Reactions are quicker, and keepers are more athletic. Don't overthink it. Just hit it.

(Mind you, I stood right behind Gordon Banks when he saved Sir Geoff's effort in the LC semi final nearly 50 years ago - so it doesn't always work).

Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate
Has liked: 13 likes
Total likes: 160 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:29 am

fmgod wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:14 am
Calvert-Lewin had taken three and scored all three, still not sure why he didn't come on to take one! From the bench him and Rashford would've been my choices.

20/21 International Friendlies International Friendlies England Nov 12, 2020 England 3:0 Republic of Ireland Darren Randolph
18/19 International Friendlies International Friendlies England U21 Nov 20, 2018 Denmark U21 1:5 England U21 Daniel Iversen
17/18 UEFA European Under-21 Championship Qualifying UEFA European Under-21 Championship Qualifying England U21 Oct 11, 2018 England U21 7:0 Andorra U21 Xisco
Calvert-Lewin's use (or lack of) across the whole tournament was an odd one for me

I would have bought him on against Italy to support Kane and then going direct woukd have been more profitable

But I agree, ibwas surprised he was not chosen as a 'penalty substitute' ahead of Sancho

Also, Henderson. I appreciate he missed his last one but a very experienced player, a leader and calm head. Given he was already on the pitch I was surprised he didnt stay on to take one

User avatar
Morocco Mole
Posts: 16785
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:31 pm
Location: Funky Nassau
Has liked: 145 likes
Total likes: 107 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Morocco Mole » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:03 am

The way Shaw strikes a ball he should definitely have taken one. Pickford probably too. Psychologically even if he misses he’s got credit in the bank for two brilliant saves.

User avatar
jastons
Posts: 8728
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 7:23 am
Location: Here
Has liked: 84 likes
Total likes: 63 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by jastons » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:41 am

Loftyhammer wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:20 pm
Spot on…Kane is our best penalty taker. Pretty much exclusively he takes the same pen….Don’mma knew that…went the right way, but Kane still beat him easily as he invariably slams it into the inside of the side netting. That is just pure practice, practice and more practice of the same, repeatable thing so it becomes automatic and very difficult to stop.
Jon wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:52 am
I’ve been discussing with mates this exact type of thinking. There are very view specialist English penalty takers. Kane, Vardy, Ward Prowse & Noble stand out.
Worth pointing out that Kane hit a poor penalty v Denmark. Redeemed himself by scoring the follow up, however.

User avatar
Absolutely Hammered!
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:45 am
Location: Spoons... Table 28... It's on the left.
Has liked: 2 likes
Total likes: 3 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Absolutely Hammered! » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:13 am

The quality of the pens we took vs Columbia to me means Wembly was a bit of a hindrance, even for our players. As someone said that Rashford pen was the one that really hurt as the keeper went the wrong way.

Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate
Has liked: 13 likes
Total likes: 160 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:47 pm

Absolutely Hammered! wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:13 am
The quality of the pens we took vs Columbia to me means Wembly was a bit of a hindrance, even for our players. As someone said that Rashford pen was the one that really hurt as the keeper went the wrong way.
we had more experience in that set of penalty takers though

Kane
Rashford - who had been a lot more involved in the tournament and was in better form
Henderson
Trippier
Dier

May not, on paper, look like the most skillful, but plenty of experience there

As mentioned, Henderson had been involved before and therefore should have been involved again (even if he did miss before)

User avatar
westham,eggyandchips
Posts: 20429
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:06 pm
Location: In the year 2525
Has liked: 108 likes
Total likes: 111 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by westham,eggyandchips » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:55 pm

I watched the Terry Venables documentary the other day and it had Teddy Sheringham on there talking about the Euro 96 semi final. He was 30 at the time and he said taking that fifth penalty against Germany was the most nervous he'd ever been playing football.

God knows how Saka must have felt, and frankly, Southgate asking him to take one as one of the first five was a bit out of order.

User avatar
HitzlspergersBurgers
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:00 pm

Re: That penalty

Post by HitzlspergersBurgers » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:09 pm

I reckon I probably have a different view to others in that I think the absurdity of Rashford's penalty run-up, and the quality of Saka's and Sancho's, is unforgiveable. Whether that's Southgate bringing them on cold is another matter. You don't do a silly little dance up to the ball, you move up smoothly and hit it. End of. I think they have a lot to answer for.

User avatar
Denzil
Posts: 3873
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 2:39 pm
Has liked: 20 likes
Total likes: 12 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Denzil » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:26 pm

I also can't see why DCL did not get brought on to take one.

Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate
Has liked: 13 likes
Total likes: 160 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:10 pm

HitzlspergersBurgers wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:09 pm
I reckon I probably have a different view to others in that I think the absurdity of Rashford's penalty run-up, and the quality of Saka's and Sancho's, is unforgiveable. Whether that's Southgate bringing them on cold is another matter. You don't do a silly little dance up to the ball, you move up smoothly and hit it. End of. I think they have a lot to answer for.
That is how Rashford (rightly or wrongly) has always taken penalties in the past though. It would be tough to expect him to change it for the shoot-out

Sancho and Saka didn't do anything particularly unusual did they? They just didn't execute as well as they could have done, but they did seem to connect reasonably well

User avatar
Jumby
Posts: 11945
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:53 pm
Location: Sparring with Michail Antonio
Total likes: 1 like

Re: That penalty

Post by Jumby » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:14 pm

Anything along the top third of the goal is the best bet, penalties aimed high never usually get saved, keepers dive mid height or low, not high.

User avatar
[HH]
In the closet
Posts: 9581
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 4:03 am

Re: That penalty

Post by [HH] » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:05 pm

Image

3 of the 5 takers were obvious.

Sterling and Henderson despite having captained, are dreadful penalty takers. Diabolical records. Maguire's record isn't great, but he's a leader and had a good tournament.

Coady had only ever taken one at senior level, and wasn't on. Mount and Trippier came off. Calvert-Lewin would have been sent on had we a spare sub, but Sancho and Rashford are the obvious choice.

If any other had taken Saka'a penalty, Saka would still have had to in sudden death, so it's a moot point really. If Rashford scores like he did in the Europa league final, I think we go on to win that shoot out. The ifs and buts are the worst thing about it all.

User avatar
Denzil
Posts: 3873
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 2:39 pm
Has liked: 20 likes
Total likes: 12 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Denzil » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:24 pm

[HH] wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:05 pm
Image

3 of the 5 takers were obvious.

Sterling and Henderson despite having captained, are dreadful penalty takers. Diabolical records. Maguire's record isn't great, but he's a leader and had a good tournament.

Coady had only ever taken one at senior level, and wasn't on. Mount and Trippier came off. Calvert-Lewin would have been sent on had we a spare sub, but Sancho and Rashford are the obvious choice.

If any other had taken Saka'a penalty, Saka would still have had to in sudden death, so it's a moot point really. If Rashford scores like he did in the Europa league final, I think we go on to win that shoot out. The ifs and buts are the worst thing about it all.
Nice stats, where is this from? Can't recall Maguire taking 8 pens but I guess lower league etc I would not remember it.

Re DCL, I don't know how it works in terms of how many we can make at a time, but we made five subs vs Italy's six, so I thought we still had the opportunity to bring on three at the end.

Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate
Has liked: 13 likes
Total likes: 160 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:35 pm

those figures include youth matches as well i think...as long as they were official fixtures
you can only use the 6th sub in extra time if you have already used up the initial quota of five in normal time
we had only used two at end of 90 minutes so didn;t get a sixth

for me, unless you are a regular penalty taker, it doesn't really matter how many you have taken in the past, whether that be 2 or 10. None of them would have been taken under those circumstances so it comes down to a players ability to handle pressure and the situation as much as anything else

i would still prefer a confident, in-form Luke Shaw over a completely un-warmed up Jadon Sancho (and definitely over Saka), whatever those stats say

User avatar
[HH]
In the closet
Posts: 9581
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 4:03 am

Re: That penalty

Post by [HH] » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:37 pm

Interested to hear other people's take on this...my mate and I have had a row over the penalty takers.

He thinks Southgate failed in his duty to protect three young English black players, and thinks he should be sacked for not anticipating the abuse he has set them up for and could ruin their careers.

I think that's diabolical reasoning given two of the three are our most experienced pen takers, and were logistically sound choices. If Southgate chose Henderson and Sterling ahead of Sancho and Rashford, he'd have been murdered for not putting better penalty takers on (see Venables '96). If he had then said he did it to protect young black players, he'd have been accused of virtue signalling and preventing them from becoming national sporting heroes. He can't win. Who the f*ck would choose penalty takers based the reaction of a small minority of Twitter trolls?

I've pointed out, like Michael Owen has, that age isn't an issue, and statistically the younger, the more likely to score. All England's shootout misses have come from those older than 24. Again, I got a mouthful, and the convo returned to race as middle aged white men can't have an opinion (he's also in this demographic).

Its properly ****ed me off. But he's a glory hunting Manc who has been absent since Taggart left, and is deflecting the blame in every ridiculous way from Rashford and Sancho imo.

Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate
Has liked: 13 likes
Total likes: 160 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:44 pm

Personally, Rashford was the correct call but he should not have been bought on in the 120th minute. I think that is a terrible decision as puts huge pressure on a player. By all means bring him on at half time in ET with opportunity to win the game in regulation and get him involved - but asking any player to come on with the sole purpose of taking a penalty is very poor management IMHO

Sancho - as above, but i would not have had him in the top 5 anyway

Saka - staggered he was asked to take the penalty


Given the situation at half time in ET regards of who was on the pitch, my five would have been - regardless of order:

Kane
Maguire
Rashford (if he had come on after 105 minutes)
Henderson
Shaw

If he wanted another 'specialist' player on purely for spot-kicks i wold have plumped for DCL above Sancho

As well as Shaw, I would have chosen Stones, Pickford, Phillips and Grealish above Saka

User avatar
Denzil
Posts: 3873
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 2:39 pm
Has liked: 20 likes
Total likes: 12 likes

Re: That penalty

Post by Denzil » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:49 pm

[HH] wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:37 pm
Interested to hear other people's take on this...my mate and I have had a row over the penalty takers.

He thinks Southgate failed in his duty to protect three young English black players, and thinks he should be sacked for not anticipating the abuse he has set them up for and could ruin their careers.

I think that's diabolical reasoning given two of the three are our most experienced pen takers, and were logistically sound choices. If Southgate chose Henderson and Sterling ahead of Sancho and Rashford, he'd have been murdered for not putting better penalty takers on (see Venables '96). If he had then said he did it to protect young black players, he'd have been accused of virtue signalling and preventing them from becoming national sporting heroes. He can't win. Who the f*ck would choose penalty takers based the reaction of a small minority of Twitter trolls?

I've pointed out, like Michael Owen has, that age isn't an issue, and statistically the younger, the more likely to score. All England's shootout misses have come from those older than 24. Again, I got a mouthful, and the convo returned to race as middle aged white men can't have an opinion (he's also in this demographic).

Its properly ****ed me off. But he's a glory hunting Manc who has been absent since Taggart left, and is deflecting the blame in every ridiculous way from Rashford and Sancho imo.
I can almost guarantee Southgate did not even think of race when it was decided. Rashford was most certainly the correct choice, although since his post saying he lacked confidence and something did not feel right, maybe it was down to him to say. I would imagine there was a list of perhaps seven definites for pens should it go and they were chosen from that list depending on who was on.

Post Reply