Chiellini/Saka

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Happyhammer52
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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Happyhammer52 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:31 am

If Jorginho goes, then Phillips should have been sent off against the Germans.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Jumby » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:38 am

Happyhammer52 wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:31 am
If Jorginho goes, then Phillips should have been sent off against the Germans.
I was watching him against Italy and a couple of times he got lucky too, if this new rule is properly applied next season he's going to get sent off a few times because the one flaw in his game is that he tackles like a League One plodder, every part of his game has come on no end but that is something that needs to be sorted out.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by szola » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:58 am

Ironing Board wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:15 am
Never a red in a million years! A little bit of physicality, is all.

Now Ramos tackle that bust Salah’s shoulder in that Champions League final, THAT was a red in my opinion, but a lot of people said that was fine.

The Italian wasn’t trying to injure the young lad, while Ramos was definitely trying to do Salah.
:newthumb:

Chiellini's way of stopping an attack is the most careing there is.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:55 pm

Gamesmanship ?

They're all at it - at least Chiellini was up front about it - it's the exaggerated ' injury ' that winds me up the most[ Immobile , Kane ] or the complete non-injury such as Maguire tried on late in the game in a desperate attempt to get the opposition sent off .

It's pathetic .

It makes us suspect everyone - I thought Chiesa was at it - perish the thought we don't get another Eriksen and play goes on thinking the injury isn't real .

Anyone caught ****ing an injury [ like Immobile or Maguire ] should be sent off .


p.s. F a k i n g isn't a swear word...yet . :grin:

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by ClydeBuilt » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:39 pm

Jumby wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:27 am
It's a shirt pull, he's not clear through on goal, it's a yellow. I agree that Jorginho, by the letter of the new law, which so far seems to be Apadu's Law, should have gone as he went in with his studs raised but even in that instance the fact that his foot bounced off of the ball and onto Grealish's leg, who acted like he'd been shot, would have probably seen VAR overturn any red. I don't like that rule anyway, sometimes you just go in with your studs raised a bit as it's physics, it's unavoidable, there was absolutely no malice in what Ampadu did.
Yeah it's not a red. It's not a nice looking shirt pull I agree but you can't have tiers for shirt pulling. Its a cynical professional foul done at the right time and the right place on the pitch for it to only reach yellow. Jorginho technically won the ball as you say and momentum took him through. I have sympathy for players because when it is a winnable ball someone has to win and the other unfortunately gets hurt in the loss.

I think the days of seeing proper studs up challenges are well gone but you can still tell if someone is intending harm or not.

Labelling the Italian's as cheats seems a bit in poor taste considering England have plenty players who see no issue in doing that themselves. Perhaps it's a mark of joining the big leagues of world players that you come to terms with that side of the game but hardly surprising Italy etc have all won multiple tournaments if they are prepared to win dirty to get them.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:47 pm

Jumby wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:27 am
It's a shirt pull, he's not clear through on goal, it's a yellow. I agree that Jorginho, by the letter of the new law, which so far seems to be Apadu's Law, should have gone as he went in with his studs raised but even in that instance the fact that his foot bounced off of the ball and onto Grealish's leg, who acted like he'd been shot, would have probably seen VAR overturn any red. I don't like that rule anyway, sometimes you just go in with your studs raised a bit as it's physics, it's unavoidable, there was absolutely no malice in what Ampadu did.
Nothing to do with being clear on goal. Its classed as violent conduct due to the height. You may not agree but it is in the laws.

Question - Saka falls back and lands on his head (which could easily have happened) - what card is it then?

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Jumby » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:54 pm

3times wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:47 pm
Nothing to do with being clear on goal. Its classed as violent conduct due to the height. You may not agree but it is in the laws.

Question - Saka falls back and lands on his head (which could easily have happened) - what card is it then?
It's not violent conduct though, it's a shirt pull, it doesn't matter if it's a sleeve, the bottom of the shirt or the back of the collar. The only reason I mentioned the clear through on goal bit is because that's the only way it could be a red. If he falls on his head he falls on his head, it's still a yellow. If you mistime a tackle, trip a player and they fall into the advertising hoardings and smash out their front teeth does a fairly innocuous challenge go from nothing more than a free kick to a free kick and a red card? No.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Denzil » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:59 pm

People actually think that was a red?

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by smuts » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:27 pm

Denzil wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:59 pm
People actually think that was a red?
I didn't at the time, yesterday thought that it really pushed the boundaries of a professional foul and could possibly be termed violent conduct (what would a similar offence get in Rugby if you grabbed a collar like that?) and now accept that it's a yellow again.

I can't recall many instances of a shirt pull like that? It was a bit of a one off...

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by ClydeBuilt » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:31 pm

smuts wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:27 pm
I can't recall many instances of a shirt pull like that? It was a bit of a one off...
Horse Caller penalty they call it in the NFL but the extent of it's crime is minimal. Maybe something FIFA will look at but you said it's a unique shirt pull but one that the law currently deems a yellow.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by jastons » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:38 pm

I hope the petition asking for a replay because 'it wasn't fair' isn't real

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by e17 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:58 pm

Denzil wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:59 pm
People actually think that was a red?
Imagine the reaction to Schumacher against Battiston in 2021

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Eggchaser » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:02 pm

smuts wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:27 pm
I didn't at the time, yesterday thought that it really pushed the boundaries of a professional foul and could possibly be termed violent conduct (what would a similar offence get in Rugby if you grabbed a collar like that?) and now accept that it's a yellow again.

I can't recall many instances of a shirt pull like that? It was a bit of a one off...
It would be a penalty offence in Rugby Union, as a high/dangerous tackle.
Might get a yellow card for it, might not depending on the ref, definitely not a red.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Doc H Ball » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:04 pm

I know it was against us, but I thought it was a wonderful foul. One of those where the actual foul continues for a while until the opposition player has to be poleaxed unceremoniously.

It was a thing of ugly beauty- bit like the fouler.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by the pink palermo » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:18 pm

I agree , I said at the time it was a "great foul" .

Proper defending

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Samba » Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:09 pm

The Old Man of Storr wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:55 pm
p.s. F a k i n g isn't a swear word...yet . :grin:
It looks like it f a k i n g is..

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Samba » Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:19 pm

3times wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:02 am
Point to note that after Howard Webb let so much go when he ref'd the WC final it came out that he was instructed to try to keep players on the pitch. Makes you wonder.
Which answers my question on Sunday night about how many fouls are the Italians going to be allowed to make before one of them gets a yellow?
So as I suspected, it was all about keeping the final as a 'spectacle', rather than properly refereeing it.
Anything less than a headbutt into someone's chest & you're staying on.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by DM » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:48 pm

Doc H Ball wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:04 pm
I know it was against us, but I thought it was a wonderful foul. One of those where the actual foul continues for a while until the opposition player has to be poleaxed unceremoniously.

It was a thing of ugly beauty- bit like the fouler.
My thoughts exactly. It was premeditated, composed and executed brilliantly. He knew what he was doing and what the punishment would be. Taking one for the team has never been so encapsulated in a foul like that!

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by woodford » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:26 am

Samba wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:19 pm
Which answers my question on Sunday night about how many fouls are the Italians going to be allowed to make before one of them gets a yellow?
So as I suspected, it was all about keeping the final as a 'spectacle', rather than properly refereeing it.
Anything less than a headbutt into someone's chest & you're staying on.
Let the team that doesn't feign injury, dive or foul be the ones to approach Uefa about a rule change. Not sure there'd be too much of a petition.

This is a thread i'd love to revisit when we play Spurs, Man Utd or Villa

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:52 am

Jumby wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:54 pm
It's not violent conduct though, it's a shirt pull, it doesn't matter if it's a sleeve, the bottom of the shirt or the back of the collar. The only reason I mentioned the clear through on goal bit is because that's the only way it could be a red. If he falls on his head he falls on his head, it's still a yellow. If you mistime a tackle, trip a player and they fall into the advertising hoardings and smash out their front teeth does a fairly innocuous challenge go from nothing more than a free kick to a free kick and a red card? No.
Whether you think its violent conduct/dangerous play is irrelevant. The laws say it is so should have been a red.

So you think that dragging someone back by the collar that lands on his head would only be a yellow, have a serious think about that. Players should be responsible for each others welfare not just their own. Its why rugby is so far ahead of football is this area. They always look at the worst case scenario and mitigate down depending on the circumstances. Football is the other way.

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