Chiellini/Saka

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Arnold Layne
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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Arnold Layne » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:07 am

e17 wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:58 pm
Imagine the reaction to Schumacher against Battiston in 2021
2 weeks litter duty,minimum.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Jumby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:07 am

3times wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:52 am
Whether you think its violent conduct/dangerous play is irrelevant. The laws say it is so should have been a red.

So you think that dragging someone back by the collar that lands on his head would only be a yellow, have a serious think about that. Players should be responsible for each others welfare not just their own. Its why rugby is so far ahead of football is this area. They always look at the worst case scenario and mitigate down depending on the circumstances. Football is the other way.
No, it's a yellow.

I already had a serious think about it, I gave a more serious example that would not change the punishment to the player in the wrong. You can't change from yellow to red just because of how a player lands, you can tackle someone perfectly, they land funny and injure themselves, they could land on their head from a perfectly good challenge. They could land on their feet or head from exactly the same foul, you can't mess around with different punishments for how a fouled player lands although we did see Kieffer Moore booked for being 6ft 5.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:27 am

Jumby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:07 am
No, it's a yellow.

I already had a serious think about it, I gave a more serious example that would not change the punishment to the player in the wrong. You can't change from yellow to red just because of how a player lands, you can tackle someone perfectly, they land funny and injure themselves, they could land on their head from a perfectly good challenge. They could land on their feet or head from exactly the same foul, you can't mess around with different punishments for how a fouled player lands although we did see Kieffer Moore booked for being 6ft 5.
Check the laws, its a red. Had this confirmed by a national league level ref. Its dangerous play.

In rugby they have a process;
was it deliberate - if yes red card with no mitigation
if not deliberate did it endanger the player - if yes red card, if not possible downgrade to yellow.
and so on.

Maybe football should take note.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Jumby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:34 am

It's not dangerous play though, it's not a choke or anything, it's a shirt pull. Nobody is at danger from that anymore than a late tackle or a trip, probably less so, they play on grass, not concrete.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Daniel1895 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:35 am

Jumby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:07 am
No, it's a yellow.

I already had a serious think about it, I gave a more serious example that would not change the punishment to the player in the wrong. You can't change from yellow to red just because of how a player lands,
In some sports you can, e.g. ice hockey.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:37 am

Jumby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:34 am
It's not dangerous play though, it's not a choke or anything, it's a shirt pull. Nobody is at danger from that anymore than a late tackle or a trip, probably less so, they play on grass, not concrete.
Like I said before, what you think is irrelevant, the laws of the game state that its dangerous play and as such a red card.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Jumby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:42 am

It's not a red card by the letter of the law, you're clearly on the wind up :crylol:

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:45 am

Jumby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:42 am
It's not a red card by the letter of the law, you're clearly on the wind up :crylol:
Have you checked then

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Jumby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:47 am

I want you to show us your source, I want you to show us, in writing, why Chiellini should have been sent off.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:48 am

It does raise an interesting discussion as to what people's definition of 'cheating' are.

In the UK, diving/simulation etc are considered cheating by vast majority, but a deliberate foul like yhat which Chiellini carried out is not. Even though he knew exactly what he was doing and was breaking the laws of the game to do so to gain an advantage. Similarly appealing for corners when you know full well you have touched it is just accepted.

I wonder if the diving/simulation thing is specific to this country because we have this notion that somehow back in the day we were all too honest to dive etc and the gamesmanship antics of time wasting, feigning injury etc was a thing foreign teams do, whereas fouls, and nutty tackles that deliberately try to injure people are more accepted as that is part of the culture of the game here

FWIW a yellow was a perfectly acceptable outcome for the Chiellini incident IMHO. It does show what could have been possible if we had attacked the two CBs with pace a bit more

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:53 am

Jumby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:47 am
I want you to show us your source, I want you to show us, in writing, why Chiellini should have been sent off.
Here we go:

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-go ... misconduct

particularly this point

Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Jumby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:10 am

3times wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:53 am
Here we go:

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-go ... misconduct

particularly this point

Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off
Yeah, I'd looked at this. It wasn't anymore excessive force than a shirt pull on any other area of the shirt. It's not a red. If that's a red then there have been literally thousands of red cards missed out over the years and games, whole seasons, changed as a result of these wrong decisions.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by ClydeBuilt » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:12 am

3times wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:53 am
Here we go:

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-go ... misconduct

particularly this point

Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off
It really wasn't excessive force though and certainly wouldn't be classed as such. At worst it's impeding a player which results in a free kick and a caution.

If Chiellini is stronger than Saka and Saka doesn't expect his shirt pulled it will look bad but ultimately it is still only a foul and not dangerous play or excessive force through contact.

It's an ungraceful action by the Italian but it's just a foul guys.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by sutts07 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:32 am

It was a yellow. Cynical and professional.
We should have sent Saka on a good 30mins earlier to run him ragged. He could only have done this once.

Italy went to a 343 at half time to try and combat Trippier. We should have reverted to a back four a lot sooner and sent Saka on just to run that channel.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:24 am

As I said I got the information clarified by a ref so will stick by it.

But lets look at a scenario:

Sunday league game - bloke runs past you grab his shirt at the waist. Free kick but not much else will happen.

Same bloke runs past, you grab him by the shirt at the neck pulling him off his feet (landing on his back/head whatever) - would imagine it would kick off.

Technically same offence but one considerably more dangerous than the other.

If there are any refs on here that would say otherwise I am happy to hear why.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by S-H » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:30 am

All that really needed to happen, was at the next corner, Ol' Slab Head miss the ball, and crack him in the swede 'accidently' with that big old chunk of concrete, I'm sure Chiellini would have appreciated the gesture, even after being stretched off.

An eye for an eye.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by Rozzop » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:44 am

3times wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:24 am
As I said I got the information clarified by a ref so will stick by it.

But lets look at a scenario:

Sunday league game - bloke runs past you grab his shirt at the waist. Free kick but not much else will happen.

Same bloke runs past, you grab him by the shirt at the neck pulling him off his feet (landing on his back/head whatever) - would imagine it would kick off.

Technically same offence but one considerably more dangerous than the other.

If there are any refs on here that would say otherwise I am happy to hear why.
It wasn't a Sunday league game refereed by Barry down the pub though was it.

It was the final of the European Championships refereed by what you hope if the best referee in the world.

It was a shirt pull on the half way line with lots of Italian cover. Clearly a yellow. Don't know what's so hard to understand.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:48 am

From what I can gather you are all qualified refs as you seem quite sure about the laws. Like I said my information came from a national league level ref.

As my example it was just to demonstrate how a similar offence can be seen in 2 different ways.

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by woodford » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:07 pm

3times wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:48 am
From what I can gather you are all qualified refs as you seem quite sure about the laws. Like I said my information came from a national league level ref.

As my example it was just to demonstrate how a similar offence can be seen in 2 different ways.
Mate theres a petition to get the game replayed, go for it

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Re: Chiellini/Saka

Post by 3times » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:15 pm

woodford wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:07 pm
Mate theres a petition to get the game replayed, go for it
:fsake:

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