Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by DasNutNock2 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:22 pm

S-H wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:17 pm
A Great Britain team will still be made up of a 1-11 of English players though.
Right now, for sure, but what about in times past - Giggs sorting out the “problem left midfield”, Dalgleish & Keegan up top, perhaps Souness & Brooking in CM… bet Neville Southall wouldn’t have let the Argie dwarf out jump him, too.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by last.caress » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:23 pm

I don't know about "should have". Italy were not there simply to make up the numbers, to accommodate England and her fans. The best side on the night should have won it; the best side in the competition should have won it. Those aren't always the same teams but, fortunately, in Euro 2020, it was. And it was Italy.

But "could have"? Definitely! Imho, any team that makes the semis of a major tournament could win that tournament, let alone any side who comes within a couple of spot-kicks of lifting the trophy. Not only have England shown that they could have won the last WC and the 2020 Euros, they've also shown that they could win WC 2022, Euro 2024 and WC 2026. All my life, it feels as though we've deluded ourselves that we're still part of the international top tier and that we're there to do any more than make up the quarter-final numbers if we're lucky. England are now a legitimate threat. Genuinely in it to win it. I think that's pretty brilliant, really.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by S-H » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:26 pm

After going 1-0 up we should've won.

Even though it was early, I'm sure I wasn't the only one who started to dream..

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:31 pm

last.caress wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:23 pm
I don't know about "should have". Italy were not there simply to make up the numbers, to accommodate England and her fans... England are now a legitimate threat. Genuinely in it to win it. I think that's pretty brilliant, really.

You were a ' Legitimate Threat ' back in 1970 with arguably a much better squad than that of 1966 .

The Host Nation always plays a big part in whoever wins a World Cup - Euros is different I grant you .

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by pablo jaye » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:41 pm

An interesting point you made earlier TOMoS, about what things would have been like had we won it.

There is an argument for it being a whole lot worse. The initial feelgood factor would only last until the next game, and if we didn’t give that side a resounding thumping then the redtops and social meeja would have been all over GS like a rash. And that’s not saying anything for the despicable way that parts of the British media like nothing better to do than to build someone be up, just to then kick the boot in.

And the government would have tried to take some of the credit too.

However, I probably would have taken this for a few weeks of experiencing the feelgood factor.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by westham,eggyandchips » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:48 pm

If you'd have said to me after the Scotland game we'd get to the final with a one nil head start, I'd have laughed my plums off.

We got there on merit, but ultimately we froze after taking the lead and in all honesty didn't deserve to win it and done well to take it to pens.

We COULD have won it.
We SHOULD have won it.

But didn't. We won't get a better chance.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by Albie Beck » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:55 pm

The Old Man of Storr wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:39 pm
How would you feel if it were a Great Britain team representing us at the Euros or the World Cup ?

Silly question - I know what the answer will be .


But until that happens we'll always be 3 very small nations and one bigger nation vying for some type of one upmanship over each other .
Indeed - I solidly wanted Lynn Davies, Mary Peters or Liz McColgan to win their Olympic medals - or indeed Mark Cavendish... it really didn't enter my head not to support them, even if up against an English competitor in the same discipline. They were both GB athletes.

I think for may years English people gave at least tacit support to Scotland and Wales in football. But (without wishing to take this off into politics) the never-ending cascade of anti-English sentiment has sparked a response in recent years, no question in my mind of that, nor however where it started too.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:06 pm

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - Southgate did everything right up until Italy drew level .

I only saw the second half - by then Italy were on the offensive and looked to be in charge , they had England pegged back .

The time for substitutions was before Italy could level - easy for me to say that now of course - but England were doing nothing going forward , they needed something different and that player was Grealish - it was Grealish that was giving you something different after Italy levelled and the Italians knew that - Jorginho should have been sent off for that challenge on the Aston Villa man , no different to the Ampadu challenge but the occasion got to the Referee . Southgate shouldn't have replaced Rice with Henderson either - bring on Henderson by all means if you want to shore up midfield but not at the expense of Rice who seemed like one who actually gave a damn , I'd have taken off Mount or Sterling before I'd have taken off Rice , Saka on for Trippier was weird too - hey ho , opinions and all that . The time for substitutions was on 65 minutes .

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by ClydeBuilt » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:48 pm

S-H wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:17 pm
A Great Britain team will still be made up of a 1-11 of English players though.
Nah. Give you 2 left backs from Scotland who could outplay any of the FBs you have either side. Add Bale on the right side and arguably what you definitely needed in the final which was a Ramsey type ACM and you could have a pretty strong side.

England could have won it yes and been deserved winners bar a dive in the semis but should they have won jt? I think Italy settled after the goal and arguably played the rest of the first half with the poorest player on the pitch Immobile. Second half it was there to win and Italy went for it.

Yet it was still penalties and that's just mentality and execution which some didn't have. The goal for Southgate now is to take that framework that got to a final and make it more potent. I honestly believe you were an attacking centre mid away from winning the whole thing. You've excellent attacking threats but nobody who likes to keep the ball and open up teams with a pass.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by S-H » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:59 pm

ClydeBuilt wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:48 pm
Nah. Give you 2 left backs from Scotland who could outplay any of the FBs you have either side. Add Bale on the right side and arguably what you definitely needed in the final which was a Ramsey type ACM and you could have a pretty strong side.
:lol:

No you keep your LBs, one might make the squad over Chilwell though, I'll have Shaw and Tripper starting, thanks.

Bale maybe 3 or 4 years ago, but he's finished now.

Ramsey wouldn't even make the squad.


Anyone else?
ClydeBuilt wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:48 pm
I honestly believe you were an attacking centre mid away from winning the whole thing. You've excellent attacking threats but nobody who likes to keep the ball and open up teams with a pass.
Like Foden or Grealish, maybe?

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by ClydeBuilt » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:12 pm

S-H wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:59 pm
:lol:

No you keep your LBs, one might make the squad over Chilwell though, I'll have Shaw and Tripper starting, thanks.

Bale maybe 3 or 4 years ago, but he's finished now.

Ramsey wouldn't even make the squad.


Anyone else?



Like Foden or Grealish, maybe?
Fair enough but both are fairly limited. I wouldn't say Bale is finished. He and Ramsey practically got them through the group stage alone. I'm surprised you don't think much of Ramsey given his quality. Grealish and Foden are hardly central players though right? You needed someone in there who could retain possession and give you time to rest.

The cutting edge for England isn't in doubt but when most pundits are saying Kane is dropping deep to get the ball then to anyone non English or Spurs it makes you wonder 1) Who's not crossing the ball that he's looking for work outside the box and 2) why is he finding space in that pocket at all because you'd hope one of your CM would be there.

Rice or Phillips is an easy decision but you don't really dominate with 2 on the field against top tier. Hell Kroos had loads of possession himself but time has caught up with him.

A Ramsey or a fit & firing Wilshere or someone who could keep that ball in the midfield might have been difference.

That said England play a defensive way and it got them to the final. Penalty scored and the whole outlook of it changes.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by Samba » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:43 am

S-H wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:00 pm
What's the point in investing time, money and emotion into football, if winning something doesn't add to your life, it might not change your life financially or improve, health or relationships, but life is about creating moments, and those are the moments as football fans we live for, it's why we suffer the constant heartach, we dust ourselves down in the hope that next time will be different.

England winning the Euros would have been one of the greatest moments of my life, one that I would take to the grave, likewise if West Ham ever win a trophy.

Two days on from the loss, and I still feel an emptiness, I'm still hurting, because I know we could and should have won it.
YES, S-H! You get it, mate.
We had the f*cking players to actually win something this time. Unlike other semi-finals when we really weren't the better team (especially 2018), this Italian team WERE beatable. Not easily beatable, but beatable. And we f*cked it up.
Despite the semi in 2018 & this final, these chances really don't come around that often.
Who knows when we'll get to a final again? Only took us 55 years, this time..

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by Jumby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:49 am

Is it me or am I the only one who thought, despite being in and out of the side and playing for an absolute idiot, Bale did pretty well last season? This talk of him being finished because Neco Williams completely hashed a clearance at an absolutely crucial stage of a match is a little weird.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by Samba » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:54 am

The Old Man of Storr wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:06 pm
Hindsight is a wonderful thing - Southgate did everything right up until Italy drew level .

I only saw the second half - by then Italy were on the offensive and looked to be in charge , they had England pegged back .

The time for substitutions was before Italy could level - easy for me to say that now of course
No TOMoS, if you'd have been watching in real time, I'm sure you would have thought or said it then.
The warnings were there towards the end of the first half. We needed 1, maybe 2 subs at half time but we didn't do it. Which just invited more pressure on us until they inevitably equalised. THEN we make a sub.. :angryred:


- but England were doing nothing going forward , they needed something different and that player was Grealish - it was Grealish that was giving you something different after Italy levelled and the Italians knew that - Jorginho should have been sent off for that challenge on the Aston Villa man , no different to the Ampadu challenge but the occasion got to the Referee . Southgate shouldn't have replaced Rice with Henderson either - bring on Henderson by all means if you want to shore up midfield but not at the expense of Rice who seemed like one who actually gave a damn , I'd have taken off Mount or Sterling before I'd have taken off Rice , Saka on for Trippier was weird too - hey ho , opinions and all that . The time for substitutions was on 65 minutes .
:newthumb:
If not at half bloody time..
We threw a golden chance away, imo. It's not like finals come around for us that often..

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by Samba » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:55 am

westham,eggyandchips wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:48 pm
If you'd have said to me after the Scotland game we'd get to the final with a one nil head start, I'd have laughed my plums off.

We got there on merit, but ultimately we froze after taking the lead and in all honesty didn't deserve to win it and done well to take it to pens.

We COULD have won it.
We SHOULD have won it.

But didn't. We won't get a better chance.
And that is what I fear, Mr Eggy.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by richneal » Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:37 am

Could have? Yes.
Should have? A no from me. Opinions and all that, so here's mine: best team on the day - and the best in the tournament - deservedly won.
Onwards and upwards though - the boys did their absolute best and got way further than I ever imagined.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by Arnold Layne » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:13 am

DrVenk wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:31 am

Onwards to Qatar.
I’d be happy to see us boycott Qatar.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by ClydeBuilt » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:22 am

Arnold Layne wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:13 am
I’d be happy to see us boycott Qatar.
A farce of a tournament really. The hoops jumped through to make this work has been incredible. I half wished it would collapse but I think if anything COVID will make this more likely to happen than not.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by Kludgehammer » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:49 am

Could have - maybe, if we had pressed our advantage when Italy were all over the place in the first 20 minutes
Should have - I don't think so; we haven't solved how to play against teams that press us (Scotland, Denmark, Italy), and until we have a plan B to address that, we're always going to make hard work of it against those teams.

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Re: Could or should we have won the Euro 20/21 final?

Post by S-H » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:10 am

Pre game, it was very much we could win, no team has the right to say they should win, before a ball is kicked.

But, after going a goal up after 2mins, we should win it.

Any team that takes the lead, should go on to win, however we all know that football doesn't work like that.

But we gave ourselves a great platform, that we should have gone on to win from.

Image

Ya get me?

:grin:

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