West Ham Utd 2-2 Crystal Palace (28/08/21)

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Porkeyes » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:32 am

I thought that was a proper English game of football where the best side on paper fails score more when on top and gives the opponent hope and a spring in their step going into the second half. I love it when we are that belligerent team who don’t give up and end up taking points off a so called better side. This type of game at home could well become common as we now have a dangerous side and teams look on taking a point at our place and strangling our play the wiser option to fully attacking us and leaving us space up top. Well done Palace for the effort they put in. We can’t be as wasteful in good 2 on 2 scenarios any more but absolutely loving watching West Ham at the moment.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Coops » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:34 am

Porkeyes wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:32 am
I thought that was a proper English game of football where the best side on paper fails score more when on top and gives the opponent hope and a spring in their step going into the second half. I love it when we are that belligerent team who don’t give up and end up taking points off a so called better side. This type of game at home could well become common as we now have a dangerous side and teams look on taking a point at our place and strangling our play the wiser option to fully attacking us and leaving us space up top. Well done Palace for the effort they put in. We can’t be as wasteful in good 2 on 2 scenarios any more but absolutely loving watching West Ham at the moment.

GSB OUT
:newthumb:

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by steps » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:35 am

Watching the MOTD highlights and cutting Dawson a bit of slack here, I don’t think there’s a lot he could of done with their 2nd goal. The ball fell nicely for Gallagher and he quickly turned him and got his shot off.

How did Antonio get the pass to Benrahma wrong when we broke in the dying minutes though? Waited far too long. Can’t knock him at the moment though.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:45 am

Absolutely Hammered! wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:26 am
Last season we managed to see out so many games when taking the lead but defensively we don't seem to be switched on at the moment. Just glad we are scoring so many.
Said this a few times now but I hope rice doesn't feel he needs to prove himself to the media (neville, keane souness etc) by adding a bunch of goals to his game and trying to become the complete midfielder overnight thus neglecting his defensive duties.
Last season Rice said he was happy to let souchek get the headlines and let him get up the pitch as he knows where the goal is so I hope Rice keeps showing the traits of a top captain and puts West Ham before personal accolades. Im sure he will.

As someone said... the opposition over 3 games have had 6 shots on target and 5 of those have resulted in goals. Its definately not time to panic but its something we need to be mindful of.
The problem we seem to have is that we are giving up shooting opportunities very close to goal. Not many of them but the ones we do are really clear cut chances so as a result they have more chance of going in then shots from distance or half chances

Conor Gallagher managed to find time and space in the box yesterday, twice, to get a shot away from about 8 yards out - even though we had a lot of defensive players around him

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:50 am

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:26 am
Fabianski could have done better with the first one but even if he had got q big hand on it, Geuhi was completely unmarked at the back post for a tap in

He had no chance at all with the second one so very harsh to allocate any blame for that


While I respect the opinions of those who say that Fabianski was at fault for those 2 goals yesterday and the Tielemens toe poke last Monday I am firmly in Crouchie's Camp on this one - Gallagher was given too much time and room for the second and Zouma would have dealt with the lead-up to the first - yes , Fab is getting on in years and he may not be as agile as he was 10 years ago but he doesn't deserve to be dropped for those goals , I'm just not seeing the error as such , teams will score goals against us - Having said that , I'd be keen on seeing what Areola can do for us , he impressed at Fulham so yes , give him game time in the Cups and in the Euros and introduce him into the first team if his performances warrant selection .

At the moment I'm not seeing what Fabianski is doing so wrong he deserves to be dropped .

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Aztec Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:53 am

That happens a lot when your centre backs don’t have the athleticism or ability to push and play further up the field.

Dawson, for obvious reasons, can’t play high up because he can’t run. The low block will invite that sort of pressure, especially when Rice and Soucek are off their game. A simple pass to break the line and get the ball behind our central midfielders and into the cavernous space in front of Dawson and Ogbonna. Now just work an overload or a diagonal slide ball and cross or pass it into an outnumbered box where Rice and Soucek are behind the play. Making a fool of Dawson is the easy bit. Goal.

Zouma’s pace should help with this immeasurably you’d like to think. He doesn’t have to camp out on the edge of his box and be afraid of pushing up to defend higher.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by bowltorious » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:56 am

Too many average performances yesterday and didn't turn our first half dominance into goals. Rice after being world class the first two games was below par today. Zouma straight in for Dawson who has been poor for a while and time for the Areola to get his chance.

Lingard has to be our next priority with hopefully a further striker and dynamic CM.

All in all a great start but time to step up the recruitment and beat Southampton after a short rest.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Coops » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:56 am

Any of us would have taken 7 points from our first 3 before the season started.
We were much the better team for most of the game yesterday, but you have got to give credit to Palace for how they dug in, fought hard and nearly nicked it at the end. That said, conceding a goal so soon after scoring shows a lack of concentration and I bet Moyes was fuming.

We are weakest in defence, hopefully, Zouma will strengthen us. But the other thing that is most noticeable is our lack of depth, we had no real attacking threat to come on from the bench. This needs sorting out before the window shuts.

Still top of the league (at least until lunchtime).

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Aztec Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:58 am

The Old Man of Storr wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:50 am
At the moment I'm not seeing what Fabianski is doing so wrong he deserves to be dropped .
Not making a save. As I said before the season, the regression with Fab would happen sooner rather than later and already had last season to be honest. But it would happen in a way where it wasn’t completely obvious to all. It wouldn’t be a blunder or outright error. It would be a ‘should have dove for that’ or ‘should’ve got a stronger hand on that’ or ‘he would’ve reached that a couple of years ago’. And that’s exactly what’s happening.

What is it, one save to five goals conceeded?

He’s been a top keeper for us but he is now old, slow, unathletic and even looks smaller. Not to mention he’s clearly getting weaker physically and is having a tough time with his mobility, which is affecting his skills.

Areola is better. He should be playing.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by S-H » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:02 am

Zouma was on compassionate leave from Chelsea this weekend, so even if we had done a deal earlier, he still wouldn't have been available to face Palace.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by il_martello_di_genovesi » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:05 am

The Old Man of Storr wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:50 am
At the moment I'm not seeing what Fabianski is doing so wrong he deserves to be dropped .
Agreed, think it's harsh.

Fabianski certainly couldn't do much with the 2nd. Dawson has been turned by some good play and Gallagher is a couple of yards out. His chance was given a 0.77 xG rating (which is about the same as a penalty). The Tielemans goal also not for me. Was a massive rebound to him with Fabianski reacting to the first shot.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Diogenes » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:05 am

Goid entertainment but 2 points dropped unfortunately against a very poor Palace side. We had enough chances to have won it comfortably but generally lacked composure and quality when it mattered.

Worryingly we appear to be making a habit of allowing scruffy goals in, in our 6 yard area. The back 5 need to take collective responsibility for that, however the keeper particularly, as at least he can use his hands! Anything close to the 6 yard area should be his. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talking going on and Rice should be on top of this. Is it because we have a more mature back line and less mature captain? Would Noble be more effective (in sorting them out, not play). Bit controversial, but I think so.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Long Shot » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:36 am

Gallagher's a decent forward player, defenders and goalies make mistakes under pressure- be a **** game if they didn't.

Areola and Zouma will also make mistakes and probably have a run of games where they make more than normal it's human to do so. We all have a period of shockers every now and then.

Don't think Moyse will make wholesale changes from the start of the next game but phase it in and I'm not going to stress too much if he does

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by DenziMart » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:41 am

steps wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:35 am

How did Antonio get the pass to Benrahma wrong when we broke in the dying minutes though? Waited far too long. Can’t knock him at the moment though.
I was saying that at the time and watching the highlights just confirmed it. Instead of taking that extra touch to carry the ball forward he should have played it across to Benrahma and he'd have been through 1 on 1. There's been several occurrences already this season where the obvious through ball has been missed by several players. I'm sure Moyes will highlight these and drill it into the players.
Like you though, I'm certainly not going to knock Antonio!

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Skandi Brudson » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:42 am

I thought Bowen should have been booked for a blatant dive in the box and Rice should have been booked earlier than he was for persistent fouling.
I’m glad they weren’t but if it was against us I’d be fuming.

I’d love if Rice picked up a “Ferguson niggle” for the international break. He needs a rest.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by hammer1975 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:56 am

Not at our best yesterday

Thought Palace worked hard and didn’t give us time - and upped it in the second half. They routinely left a foot, arm or leg in on challenges - Atwell is a pretty lenient ref at the best of times but with these new relaxed rules he was even more forgiving of that disruptive approach. Wonder if he’ll let us rough up the self important six? Sorry, daft question.

Gallagher was the stand out player on the pitch - to the point I did wonder whether there was some beef with Declan from their Chelsea youth days, he will likely not have a better game this season.


Few of ours looked tired, not moving into space, lazy passes etc - especially the second half - Rice, Soucek, Coufal and Bowen particularly. Dawson seemed to lose composure - whilst harsh to blame him for the second goal they clearly targeted that side of our defence in the second half. Not sure whether Fab could have done better with the goals but his distribution wasn’t great allowing Palace to put us under pressure a few times as a result.

Felt Moyes was late with subs - but then his options were limited. Felt it would have been a good game to switch to wingbacks had Masuaku been on the bench, they were so on top and doing straight switches to bring in less physical players looked unlikely to help.

Last point, bit miffed why Cresswell doesn’t take all of our corners anymore - Bowen has a decent delivery but not as good as Cresswell imo and we seem to have become much less threatening from corners.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Aztec Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:02 am

Long Shot wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:36 am
Gallagher's a decent forward player, defenders and goalies make mistakes under pressure- be a **** game if they didn't.

Areola and Zouma will also make mistakes and probably have a run of games where they make more than normal it's human to do so. We all have a period of shockers every now and then.

Don't think Moyse will make wholesale changes from the start of the next game but phase it in and I'm not going to stress too much if he does
Everybody will make mistakes but the better ones will make them less. It unfortunately comes as no surprise that Dawson is making the most. Zouma has always been a lot better than Dawson so that combined with the form he’s in means I would be disappointed if the change isn’t made immediately.

Fab hasn’t always been obviously the lesser player to Areola so it isn’t as clearcut, but to me it has become obvious that he is not our best keeper anymore and should be the backup. I could see this occurring more organically after Areola plays the Europa game, so I wouldn’t be as disappointed if Fab is still in goal for Southampton, but as far as I’m concerned, the fundamental rule is that you play your best players who give you the best chance to win.

In my mind, that’s undeniably Areola and Zouma rather than Fab and Dawson.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:05 am

Aztec Hammer wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:58 am
Not making a save.

What is it, one save to five goals conceeded?



Areola is better. He should be playing.

' Not making a save ' - well , that all depends on context .

Last Monday I saw Fab come out and snatch the ball out of the air before the Leicester cross reached their strikers - is that a save or a preventative measure ? - smart Goalkeepers position themselves so they don't have to make those ' Match Of The Day Saves ' .

' Not Making A Save ' could mean there was no save to be made , how many shots did Leicester have on target , how many did Newcastle have ?

I saw lots of Fancy-Dan play from Saint-Maximim but apart from the cross for Wilson [ Fabianski not at fault ] he did nothing of note .

Leicester played ' The Simpsons ' type of football passing to each other in their own half boring the pants off the 60,000 crowd , apart from their goal from 3 yards out I don't remember them bothering our Goalkeeper that much .

' Areola Is Better ' - I certainly hope he is and we sign him on a permanent , that would mean we'd have one hell of a goalkeeper - unless you mean he's only better than an ageing Fabianski ?

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by bubbles1966 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:15 am

hammer1975 wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:56 am
Few of ours looked tired, not moving into space, lazy passes etc - especially the second half - Rice, Soucek, Coufal and Bowen particularly. Dawson seemed to lose composure - whilst harsh to blame him for the second goal they clearly targeted that side of our defence in the second half. Not sure whether Fab could have done better with the goals but his distribution wasn’t great allowing Palace to put us under pressure a few times as a result.

Felt Moyes was late with subs - but then his options were limited. Felt it would have been a good game to switch to wingbacks had Masuaku been on the bench, they were so on top and doing straight switches to bring in less physical players looked unlikely to help.

Last point, bit miffed why Cresswell doesn’t take all of our corners anymore - Bowen has a decent delivery but not as good as Cresswell imo and we seem to have become much less threatening from corners.
I was talking to my eldest during the game and saying the right hand side was struggling. I think Coufal has been a 6/10 at the start of this season and hasn't been at the level he was last season. Pacier wingers cause him problems.

I was surprised that Fredericks or Diop weren't introduced - not necessarily to replace Dawson or Coufal, but to rebalance the team and help shut them down.

There seems to be this thing about slinging on more attackers all the time as if it provides momentum, when in reality it often makes matters worse.

I understood Lanzini coming in to improve our use of the ball, but taking over Soucek's position ??? We seemed more open and less controlled as a consequence.

As for the goals, no fault for Fab on the second, the real issue there is that we had three players covering two wide right, yet they walked the ball through, but his positioning, reflexes and strength of hand all looked iffy with the first. They might have scored from the follow up, but that's no reason for failing to keep the original shot out.

He doesn't seem to be the same 'keeper he was when he signed in 2018. At no point that season was there any reason to mumble, "should he have done better there?" It's happening quite a bit now.
Last edited by bubbles1966 on Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:29 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Aztec Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:15 am

The Old Man of Storr wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:05 am
' Not making a save ' - well , that all depends on context .

Last Monday I saw Fab come out and snatch the ball out of the air before the Leicester cross reached their strikers - is that a save or a preventative measure ? - smart Goalkeepers position themselves so they don't have to make those ' Match Of The Day Saves ' .

' Not Making A Save ' could mean there was no save to be made , how many shots did Leicester have on target , how many did Newcastle have ?

I saw lots of Fancy-Dan play from Saint-Maximim but apart from the cross for Wilson [ Fabianski not at fault ] he did nothing of note .

Leicester played ' The Simpsons ' type of football passing to each other in their own half boring the pants off the 60,000 crowd , apart from their goal from 3 yards out I don't remember them bothering our Goalkeeper that much .

' Areola Is Better ' - I certainly hope he is and we sign him on a permanent , that would mean we'd have one hell of a goalkeeper - unless you mean he's only better than an ageing Fabianski ?
That’s collecting a cross into his box that he should have, and was much closer to him than any Leicester player. Standard goalkeeping.

Newcastle had a lot of attempts against us, and had they been less profligate with their chances, I’d have fancied them to score more than two. Fab could have done better for their second. I’d say he would have dove for that in the past.

The point is that when the opposition is putting it on target, it’s going in a lot more than it’s being stopped. None are blatant errors in a way that you could declare them statistically, but you can’t tell me Fab shouldn’t have done better with Gallagher’s first. I actually personally think he should have done better with Leicester’s goal.

Areola is better in that he’s clearly better than Fabianski because he is one of the better keepers around. Statistically, by the eye test and by the accounts of Fulham fans, he was excellent last season, and one of the best keepers in Europe.

If we were picking who should play next week solely on merit, and neither Fab or Areola had played a single game for West Ham before, everybody would pick Areola. It’s only a sense of loyalty or a feeling of ‘he hasn’t lost the shirt with an obvious blunder yet’ that is keeping him in the team. And personally, I don’t subscribe to that. That’s not what’s best for West Ham.

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