West Ham Utd 2-2 Crystal Palace (28/08/21)

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Up the Junction » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:18 am

The opposition view: Crystal Palace
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Bond Holder 59 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:19 am

On reflection having waited until the day after before rushing in, I think:

Palace raised their game and pressured Rice in particular from the start. If they hadn’t they knew it would be a Leicester type game. Well done.

We were not at our best, and to be fair we have had a great run of good performances- including the preseason. We were due an average performance. Still some nice moments which 24 months ago would have been unusual to see. Not our worst performance.

Whilst our bench is not to everyone’s expectations, there is a mixture of experience (Yarma, Manuel, Nobes and Areleo) with potential (Coventry, Baptise and Oxoflex??). Apart from top four, not too different to most.

Personally, I like seeing the youngsters given some exposure. It’s worked for Coventry, and regrettably not for Mipo. It will always go one way or the other. Better we find out before sign them on expensive long term contracts.

Finally, because I know some readers will otherwise disagree, and assuming Lingard rejoins, the gap on our bench is the striker. This is the trickiest issue to fix. We want almost perfect player at an affordable price, and who is prepared to start on the bench for most of the season, and to come on for final ten minutes regularly and have a positive impact, who won’t upset the squad morale, and who won’t want to leave as soon as somebody comes in with a bigger contract. Finally, one that Moyes thinks will fit into his style of play (not our preferred style as punters).

See easy……..that’s why it still hasn’t been sorted, and may take until January 22 by when any potential signing will be able to see how ‘Marvellous Mickey’ is holding up. Otherwise game time opportunities look slim on his current contribution.
👍

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Burnley Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:23 am

Skandi Brudson wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:42 am
I thought Bowen should have been booked for a blatant dive in the box and Rice should have been booked earlier than he was for persistent fouling.
I’m glad they weren’t but if it was against us I’d be fuming.

I’d love if Rice picked up a “Ferguson niggle” for the international break. He needs a rest.
I don't think he dived as such. I think he lost his balance and fell... but he was wrong to try and claim it as a penalty

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Ethanadict » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:24 am

hammer1975 wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:56 am
Not at our best yesterday
Well we definitely watched the same game hammer75!, I agree with every point you make here.

Palace were tough and physical, and while I wouldn’t say that they out muscled us in midfield, they certainly won as many duels as we did. Rice didn’t have his best game and you’d have to say Gallagher got the better of him. Soucek was uncharacteristically anonymous really.

The four you picked out, Rice, Soucek, Bowen and Coufal were the same four I also thought looked tired for most of the second half. Antonio too actually. It mystified me why he subbed Fornals, who was able to sprint off the pitch quicker than any of them had run for the last 15 mins!

Subs did come a bit late if players were as tired as they looked. I know it’s heresy to suggest breaking up the gruesome twosome, but yesterday might have been a day to bring off one of Rice or Soucek on 65 mins to give one a rest, and try Lanzini in that holding role to keep some more possession.

I love Ogbonna but I thought he was a bit quiet yesterday. What you don’t see on highlights is how often Dawson takes responsibility for the unglamorous jobs. He anticipates well and sticks his head in everywhere and makes great blocks. He has his limitations at his age but I think it would be unfair to single him out yesterday.

I felt the same as you on corners. Our delivery was poor yesterday, mostly to the near post and I think Palace got the first head on pretty much every one.

I left feeling really flat but reflecting this morning, as the Moyesiah says, maybe that shows how far we have come. You don’t have to go back too far to remember games like this that we lost. We played much the better football, particularly first half, but didn’t have quite the quality to finish enough chances. Despite some looking tired, every player gave everything they had so can’t ask for much more than that.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by SullySpecial » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:27 am

Fabianski has been great for us, but his powers are slightly on the wane. If Moyes has earmarked Areola as our GK for the future then there will have to come a point sometime soon where he is given a chance. After all, he’s on loan, and if you came in on loan after being told you were going to be playing would you be keen to sign a permanent deal if you weren’t trusted to play?

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Long Shot » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:29 am

Aztec Hammer wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:02 am

Fab hasn’t always been obviously the lesser player to Areola so it isn’t as clearcut, but to me it has become obvious that he is not our best keeper anymore and should be the backup

In my mind, that’s undeniably Areola and Zouma rather than Fab and Dawson.
How is it obvious he's not our best keeper anymore? When did Areola become a better keeper for West Ham than Fab? Genuine question as I coukbe missing something

Zouma I get why he's an upgrade but Daws does know the set up and nuances of the management strategy and tactics better than Zouma at the moment which is why I think Moyse will ease him in

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Aztec Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:32 am

Long Shot wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:29 am
How is it obvious he's not our best keeper anymore? When did Areola become a better keeper for West Ham than Fab? Genuine question as I coukbe missing something
I remember someone on here claimed it wasn’t obvious Payet was an upgrade on Downing because he had never played for us.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Ethanadict » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:37 am

Bond Holder 59 wrote:
Finally, because I know some readers will otherwise disagree, and assuming Lingard rejoins, the gap on our bench is the striker. This is the trickiest issue to fix. We want almost perfect player at an affordable price, and who is prepared to start on the bench for most of the season, and to come on for final ten minutes regularly and have a positive impact, who won’t upset the squad morale, and who won’t want to leave as soon as somebody comes in with a bigger contract. Finally, one that Moyes thinks will fit into his style of play (not our preferred style as punters).

See easy……..that’s why it still hasn’t been sorted, and may take until January 22 by when any potential signing will be able to see how ‘Marvellous Mickey’ is holding up. Otherwise game time opportunities look slim on his current contribution.
👍

Good points Bondholder. There’s no question Antonio tires in the final quarter of most matches and we just don’t have the “out ball” that we have earlier in the game, which then sees pressure start to build on us. And we don’t have anyone else who can hold the ball as he does, so whether you play Yarmo or Bowen there, it means a change of style.

I’m not sure what the answer is, other than we need to get better at playing without a target man. Citeh manage it often enough, and the likes of Fornals, Lanzini, Bowen and Benrahma (and maybe Lingard) may not be as good as the Citeh attacking midfielders but they are similar in style.

Speaking the bleeding obvious, but we do desperately need someone to take some pressure off the very broad shoulders of Antonio.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Long Shot » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:38 am

Aztec Hammer wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:32 am
I remember someone on here claimed it wasn’t obvious Payet was an upgrade on Downing because he had never played for us.
But it wasn't obvious until he started playing for us, the team. We've had our fair share of obvious upgrades that were not fit for purpose too. Areola should be ready to step in and is seen as long term successor to Fab but can't see how anyone knows for sure we would have won that game yesterday on his debut

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by scatts » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:56 am

Areola should start the next match. Not because Fab screwed up but because he is as good, maybe better, and if we are going to rotate, we should rotate. We need to see him in action and now’s as good a time as any.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Aztec Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:06 pm

Long Shot wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:38 am
But it wasn't obvious until he started playing for us, the team. We've had our fair share of obvious upgrades that were not fit for purpose too. Areola should be ready to step in and is seen as long term successor to Fab but can't see how anyone knows for sure we would have won that game yesterday on his debut
It was if you’d seen Payet play before, to be honest.

For what it’s worth, I never said we would’ve won with Areola in goal yesterday. I only said that if neither Fab or Areola had played for West Ham before, and one had to be picked on merit as the better keeper to be selected, it would be Areola by the vast majority of football fans. Whether he goes on to prove he is fit to be West Ham’s goalie long term is down to his performances once he’s inserted, but how is he meant to prove he is better than Fab if he never gets the chance to play? He has to have his first game for us at some point.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Diogenes » Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:07 pm

Skandi Brudson wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:42 am
I thought Bowen should have been booked for a blatant dive in the box and Rice should have been booked earlier than he was for persistent fouling.
I’m glad they weren’t but if it was against us I’d be fuming.

I’d love if Rice picked up a “Ferguson niggle” for the international break. He needs a rest.
Given those two examples, Zaha should have seen red. Also, I think Bowen was outside the area.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by hammer1975 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:23 pm

bubbles1966 wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:15 am
I was talking to my eldest during the game and saying the right hand side was struggling.
Agree on Fab, Bubbs

Also agree about the right hand side. Coufal looks below the level of last season - I’m not sure if that is due to small sample size, tiredness or a few other things but I noticed a few gesticulations from him towards both Dawson and Bowen during the game for not giving him options where he was under the press from Palace. He didn’t like being targeted and am hoping he’ll benefit from a pacey right CB. Yesterday also looked an obvious game to switch to 3 at the back if we’d had the options on the bench imo. Think that would have enabled better cover on the right and potentially take back centre mid control (which we lost for the whole second half).

Have been posting in the transfer thread repeatedly recently that we need another athletic mid - I though Lanzini did ok when he came on (I saw him as left of the 3 in a 4-2-3-1) but he was tidy more than anything else - it wasn’t the sub to take control of the midfield that we needed given the performances from Rice and Soucek (to be fair to them how rare is that). I’m not convinced that he, Nobes or Coventry can provide anything like the platform those two do and that will massively affect the effectiveness of our whole attacking unit by consequence.

A player to bring on to support those two for games like yesterday is a higher priority than striker for me (other clubs will have watched Palace yesterday and you can bet a few will look to copy the tactic of targeting Rice).

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by -DL- » Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:28 pm

Diogenes wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:07 pm
Given those two examples, Zaha should have seen red. Also, I think Bowen was outside the area.
Zaha was lucky not to see red for the forearm to Coufal's face...

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Rozzop » Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:41 pm

Chicken Run Supreme wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:32 am
I saw the stats for yesterday and Palace had 2 shots on target and scored both. Wasn’t aware that the stats were similar from first two games as well. If you are conceding 5 goals every 3 games you are going to need to be scoring well every game . Thankfully we are at the moment but our defence needs to be taking some pressure of the forwards and the defence starts with the keeper. Fabianski has been a great keeper but there were signs last season that he was on the decline and maybe better to let Areola have a turn sooner rather than later.
I mean, none of the goals were howlers but could he have done a bit better?

It's not like Roberto where shots went right through him. But even Roberto pulled off some saves from time to time

It just seems Fabianskis agility and speed of footwork is on the decline, which it will be at 36, and let's be honest, he's never been an elite level goalkeeper.

Clearly Areola was signed for a reason. I'm sick of beating the clean sheet drum but just for once as a West Ham fan I want a good defence.

We will never be a regular top team conceding this amount of goals.

Chelsea were mid table under Frank and an open defence. Tuchel comes in and they have the best defensive stats in Europe and a Champions League - with the same players.

Areola and Zouma are in theory a step up from what we have. Now we have to find a balance. In no way do I want to go back to the Allardyce era but we would have won that game with a better defence.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Burnley Hammer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:48 pm

I thought Coufal played alright to be honest, still getting plenty of balls into the danger area. He's not had it easy being up against Almiron and Maximin against Newcastle and Zaha against Palace

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots » Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:56 pm

Burnley Hammer wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:23 am
I don't think he [Bowen] dived as such. I think he lost his balance and fell... but he was wrong to try and claim it as a penalty
I posted at the time questioning if he had done the 'Vardy Shuffle', tripping himself up against the back of his calf.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Westaam » Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:14 pm

If we had signed Zouma ten days ago and he'd started, we'd have nine points today.

Dawson failed to smother Gallagher for the first goal and lunged into a gamble to open up the far post, and for the second goal Dawson was far too far from Gallagher, and the best he could do after Gallagher's first touch was have it bobble off his shin right back into Gallagher's path before the turn and shot.

He made Gallagher look like Maradona where another defender, hopefully Zouma, would have thrown up a couple of buses in Gallagher's way.

People go on about Dawson's lack of pace in a sprint back, but the problem as much as that is that Dawson just isn't that great a defender in tight areas in the box.

Moyes said after the game, that there were a couple of things in the second half that were not pleasing, and I don't think he was talking about the Moroccan chickpea pie and the beer.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd V Crystal Palace: match thread

Post by Bubbles Fortuna » Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:43 pm

Westaam wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:14 pm
If we had signed Zouma ten days ago and he'd started, we'd have nine points today.

Dawson failed to smother Gallagher for the first goal and lunged into a gamble to open up the far post, and for the second goal Dawson was far too far from Gallagher, and the best he could do after Gallagher's first touch was have it bobble off his shin right back into Gallagher's path before the turn and shot.

He made Gallagher look like Maradona where another defender, hopefully Zouma, would have thrown up a couple of buses in Gallagher's way.

People go on about Dawson's lack of pace in a sprint back, but the problem as much as that is that Dawson just isn't that great a defender in tight areas in the box.

Moyes said after the game, that there were a couple of things in the second half that were not pleasing, and I don't think he was talking about the Moroccan chickpea pie and the beer.
Regardless of the fact that there is no way of knowing if this is true, Zouma could have scored an own goal in the first minute for all we know.

We also don't know how time has changed that deal. Chelsea wanted to sell to move on Kounde, the longer that is delayed the more desperate they are to move Zouma. I'm surprised Zouma was even available, he probably wasn't a month ago.

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