The system in which they can't use unless they top it up? And if smart meter can be done remotely?SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:05 pm But are they subsidising others bills or paying admin costs for the system they are using? Paying on receipt costs more as well because there is more work administering it.
DD you (used to) get a discount because it's relatively automatic to process. No bills to post out, no chasing up, no payment machines to pay for etc.
The Energy Crisis
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Re: The Energy Crisis
- SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis
I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make mumbles. Tenners said prepayment subsidised everyone elses bills, you said their costs are higher than anyone else.
Right now they are neither subsidising nor paying more than others. Unless I'm missing something in the billing info
There is an argument (which I said at the start) that when the cutthroat DD offers were flying about they were subsidised by people not on those offers. Again though this wasn't just prepayment customers.
Re: The Energy Crisis
You missed the point in your own post for crying out loudSammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:20 pm I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make mumbles. Tenners said prepayment subsidised everyone elses bills, you said their costs are higher than anyone else.
Right now they are neither subsidising nor paying more than others. Unless I'm missing something in the billing info
There is an argument (which I said at the start) that when the cutthroat DD offers were flying about they were subsidised by people not on those offers. Again though this wasn't just prepayment customers.
Under the price cap it's £60 more per year for them so they are paying more.
That's fact.
The poorest are being charged the most. Fact.
And remember a cap isn't a limit .. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... march-2023
There unit rate for gas (which is the costly one) is higher on average than direct debit
That's the point you keep missing
There rate is higher...
Standing charge normally higher aswell.
- alf git
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Re: The Energy Crisis
Don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone with a pre pay meter is "poor".
- SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis
Ok from that link prepayment is higher for gas than DD but cheaper for electric, it's cheaper for both than the standard credit. Cash and cheque standing charges are higher than prepayment ones. You could say standard credit customers paying by cheque are subsidising prepayment customers. Even at a pound a week more than the DD cap prepay customers are hardly subsidising everyone else's bill.mumbles87 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:30 pm You missed the point in your own post for crying out loud
Under the price cap it's £60 more per year for them so they are paying more.
That's fact.
The poorest are being charged the most. Fact.
And remember a cap isn't a limit .. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... march-2023
There unit rate for gas (which is the costly one) is higher on average than direct debit
That's the point you keep missing
There rate is higher...
Standing charge normally higher aswell.
As you say the cap isn't a limit so it's perfectly possible some people on direct debit are paying more in total than some people on prepayment. That's just people using more though, use more pay more isn't unfair.
Gas the expensive one?
Re: The Energy Crisis
That's the point worth picking up on? Not the fact that the poorest pay more. Not all on pre pay are poor but more poor people are on pre payment than not
They are charged more
Simple as that.
Re: The Energy Crisis
Anyone who uses gas to heat their home will feel the pinch from just a 1p rise in gas.SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:55 pm Ok from that link prepayment is higher for gas than DD but cheaper for electric, it's cheaper for both than the standard credit. Cash and cheque standing charges are higher than prepayment ones. You could say standard credit customers paying by cheque are subsidising prepayment customers. Even at a pound a week more than the DD cap prepay customers are hardly subsidising everyone else's bill.
As you say the cap isn't a limit so it's perfectly possible some people on direct debit are paying more in total than some people on prepayment. That's just people using more though, use more pay more isn't unfair.
Gas the expensive one?
People on average use 3000 KW electric per year and 12000kw gas.
Each 1p being £120 .. people just sit in the cold and run out of credit sooner..
Electric is 34p it has risen 20p
Gas is 10p it had risen 8 p
A £600 rise per year electric but a £960 rise in gas
- Danny's Dyer Acting
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Re: The Energy Crisis
So we force people in financial difficulty into a system like this? Great workOne thing that's worth remembering when discussing the enforced installation of a prepayment meter is that, not only is the standing charge/unit price more expensive, but it is usually also set up to collect the outstanding debt. The debt gets 'collected' before the customer gets any energy. This is one of the main reason many end up effectively self-disconnecting.
As an example (and using simple numbers to illustrate), take a person who has a debt of £200, and their prepayment meter is set to collect £7 a week.
This means the meter is taking £1 per day from your credit. Now, let's say the customer is ill or has an unexpected expense that means they need to use their £10 emergency credit on the meter.
They use this over 6 days, with the meter effectively taking £6 of it for the debt, before they run out. They go without energy for 2 more days before they are able to top up.
To get their energy back they now need to replace the £10 emergency credit, and pay an additional £2 to cove the accrued debt for the time they had no energy.
So, say, a £15 top up buys them £3 worth of energy, with the debt being clawed back daily (so, even with minimal usage, they are going to run out again in 2 days or so).
Re: The Energy Crisis
DW Sammy will be along to explain how it's only a little more and not a problem.Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:04 pm So we force people in financial difficulty into a system like this? Great work
- alf git
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Re: The Energy Crisis
If that is saying that debt is recovered from the emergency credit then it doesn't. Debt is recovered from top ups.Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:04 pm So we force people in financial difficulty into a system like this? Great work
I've got pre payment meters and fit meters for a living. However this particular discussion is only going one way so I'll leave it to the experts.
- SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis
Anyone who uses electric to heat their homes will also be feeling the pinch. Is gas more efficient? Is it cheaper to heat your home and cook with gas or electric?mumbles87 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:03 pm Anyone who uses gas to heat their home will feel the pinch from just a 1p rise in gas.
People on average use 3000 KW electric per year and 12000kw gas.
Each 1p being £120 .. people just sit in the cold and run out of credit sooner..
Electric is 34p it has risen 20p
Gas is 10p it had risen 8 p
A £600 rise per year electric but a £960 rise in gas
The rest of the post is a different argument. You are arguing about the system, I'm saying prepayment doesn't subsidise everyone else's bill.
- SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis
That's a complete misrepresentation of anything I have said. I'm saying it doesn't subsidise everyone else's bill. I haven't commented on the system being right or wrong. Please don't take what I say and apply it to things I haven't talked about.
- SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis
Pay on receipt you are charged more, pay by cheque you are charged more, live in certain areas of the country you are charged more. Pay by direct debit and they build up a surplus and keep your interest.
Nobody is getting picked on, everyone gets screwed.
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Re: The Energy Crisis
Which is why I asked to go onto a prepayment meter.SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:49 pm Pay on receipt you are charged more, pay by cheque you are charged more, live in certain areas of the country you are charged more. Pay by direct debit and they build up a surplus and keep your interest.
Nobody is getting picked on, everyone gets screwed.
If you top up by small amounts at a time you can get a really good measure of your usage and adjust accordingly, it's probably saved us a fortune over the years. The main downside for us is remembering to bung a load on if we're buggering off on holiday........
Re: The Energy Crisis
But that's your choice. You can afford to do that without worrying.delbert wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:34 pm Which is why I asked to go onto a prepayment meter.
If you top up by small amounts at a time you can get a really good measure of your usage and adjust accordingly, it's probably saved us a fortune over the years. The main downside for us is remembering to bung a load on if we're buggering off on holiday........
Imagine your broke and it's £20 to put the heating on or eat for the week
That £20 for the meter could be gone on food before you know it and you can't afford to put on.
These people shouldn't pay more than those who can afford direct debit
- SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis
Right now they may as well.
To be fair I pay my DD before I get the bill so technically am I pre paying?
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Re: The Energy Crisis
'After being approached for comment, British Gas suspended the practice of force-fitting prepayment meters. It began an investigation into the “deeply concerning” findings, adding: “This is not who we are — it’s not how we do business”, they lied..Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:51 pm Great reporting this. Times reporter goes undercover with a firm of debt collectors that are taking on contracts from British Gas to force entry to people's homes and fit prepay meters.
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Re: The Energy Crisis
A fair point. I'm not sure we're that far apart on this. Surely, what is needed above all is clarity and fairness. If they need some people to be on prepayment meters, then everyone should be on one.SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:00 pm Right now they may as well.
To be fair I pay my DD before I get the bill so technically am I pre paying?
[ The companies would lose all interest accrued on the overpayment people make as a result of DD based on their estimated bills, but hey ho, I don't see their CEOs heading towards the nearest food bank anytime soon..]
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Re: The Energy Crisis
Why? They want people on prepayment meters that they perceive to be more likely not to pay them.
Prepayment is a less convenient solution for everyone. You'll also need to replace millions of meters, which just isn't practical.