Aston Villa 1-4 West Ham Utd (31/10/21)

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Vic_Watson » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:12 pm

Up the Junction wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:55 pm
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Not if you don't know the rules.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Vic_Watson » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:15 pm

SiO wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:57 pm
As Estuary points out above, the incident on Antonio was pretty blatant. So there's one.
Was he also through on goal?

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by SiO » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:16 pm

mushy wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:38 pm
The rules as regards sending off for denying a goal scoring attempt are as follows -:
The following must be considered:
distance between the offence and the goal
general direction of the play
likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
location and number of defenders.


So it's the general direction of play and NOT the direction the ball was travelling. I say this because Dean Smith suggested afterwards that his guy shouldn't have been sent off because the ball wasn't travelling directly towards the goal. This was also mentioned by a few TV and radio pundits.
Its clearly little to do with that for obvious reasons (for instance if a player rounds the keeper and brings the ball backwards In an attempt to slide it into an empty net for instance if he was wide of the goal at the time)
They don't know the rules..
Is the general direction of play and of the ball not the same thing in this instance Mushy?

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by SiO » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:17 pm

Vic_Watson wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:15 pm
Was he also through on goal?
We were just talking reds weren't we Vic? Rather than professional fouls

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by mushy » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:28 pm

SiO wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:16 pm
Is the general direction of play and of the ball not the same thing in this instance Mushy?
Not in my view SIO, though I accept there is a certain amount of interpretation.
Even if it was, as in the example I used, a player rounds the keeper near the bye line and passes it slightly backwards so that all he has to do is sidefoot it in.
The keeper then rugby tackles him to the ground but no sending off because the ball wasn't heading towards the goal at the time.
Its nonsense.
The general direction of play does not mean that the ball needs to be going directly towards the net.
That's my thinking on it and backed up by one of those celebrity referees on the radio.
Its a good discussion though

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by SiO » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:33 pm

:newthumb:

A bit like playing the ball first if you've then cleaned someone out and broken their leg! Yep, common sense approach for sure. Good discussion as you say. I'm discussed out now as I've nothing more to add.

Thought provoking stuff though and a good opportunity to look at the laws of the game and how its reffed. I suppose this is why you hear pundits wishing that refs had played the game to apply common sense.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by taffhammer » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:35 pm

The laws of the game are open to interpretation. Thats why VAR officials and refs, with a soft spot left over from their youth for a big club, will never be fair over the course of a season.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Aceface » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:35 pm

The biggest argument for it having denied a clear goalscoring opportunity is because we scored a few minutes later from Bowen haring onto the ball in almost the exact same spot he was brought down for the card.

All the hand-wringing afterwards about if he really could have got a shot off from that position...you don't need to see a hypothetical, it actually happened in practice minutes later.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Oldun » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:38 pm

This was Dermot Gallaghers take on it

DERMOT'S VERDICT: Correct decision.

DERMOT SAYS: "You have to ask if Bowen is in control of the ball - I think he was. It's only run away because he's been fouled. Would he have a direct run at goal? The ball has gone that way because he was fouled and once he gathers the ball, he's 18 yards from goal. He's lost control of the ball because he was fouled so if he hadn't have been, he would head towards goal.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Monkey Mike » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:40 pm

Aceface wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:35 pm
All the hand-wringing afterwards about if he really could have got a shot off from that position...you don't need to see a hypothetical, it actually happened in practice minutes later.
A very good point, and yes of course he was getting a decent shot off if he wasn’t brought down.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Mega Ron » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:41 pm

S-H wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:00 pm
I don't think the Konsa one was a red, purely because Bowen was heading away from goal.

I can, though, see why it was given, but would understand if it hadn't of been.

Kortney Hause' forearm smash on Pablo, was a clear red card though.
I don't think he was technically moving away from goal. Even running in the same direction he gets closer to the goal than he was. What is also obvious is that his next touch would be one that directed him to the goal.

The decision(s) were strange though. I believe that is the ref gives the red for the foul on Fornals that the free kick takes place from there and the other red can't be given.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by carnage » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:44 pm

Vic_Watson wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:12 pm
Not if you don't know the rules.
Intent is not in the laws. So you can be unlucky and get a red.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:44 pm

Oldun :newthumb: Bowen was already goal side of Konsa and running to collect the ball. The only reason he didn't was because he was fouled. Had there been no foul it's likely he would have got a shot on goal, and that's a goalscoring opportunity.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by mushy » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:46 pm

Mega Ron wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:41 pm
I believe that is the ref gives the red for the foul on Fornals that the free kick takes place from there and the other red can't be given.
You mean if the ref blew up immediately and didn't allow or wait to see if there was an advantage?
In which case the ref should have been shot.
Technically I think you are right but as it stands they both could (and probably should) have gone.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by SiO » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:46 pm

Mega Ron wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:41 pm
I don't think he was technically moving away from goal. Even running in the same direction he gets closer to the goal than he was. What is also obvious is that his next touch would be one that directed him to the goal.

The decision(s) were strange though. I believe that is the ref gives the red for the foul on Fornals that the free kick takes place from there and the other red can't be given.
I got bogged down a bit MegaRon but it's really this last paragraph that prompted my involvement on this thread. Very odd in that I not seen it before was all. What happened next really wasn't my initial interest in posting, although good points followed

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by BabyClaret » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:48 pm

Mega Ron wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:41 pm
I don't think he was technically moving away from goal. Even running in the same direction he gets closer to the goal than he was. What is also obvious is that his next touch would be one that directed him to the goal.

The decision(s) were strange though. I believe that is the ref gives the red for the foul on Fornals that the free kick takes place from there and the other red can't be given.
No on the bottom bit - VAR via Sky Sports confirmed that two red cards could have been shown - both to Hause and Konsa.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by carnage » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:48 pm

Monkey Mike wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:40 pm
A very good point, and yes of course he was getting a decent shot off if he wasn’t brought down.
He would have shot from an almost identical spot to where he shot for our 3rd goal.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Estuary » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:58 pm

Up the Junction wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:06 pm
It was given, and rightly so, because DOGSO.

DOGSO doesn't mean the player has to be running directly towards the area between the goal posts.
Totally. Bowen is a very clever footballer, I'd have backed him to get his shot off on target even if he was moving as he was.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Hampshire Hammer » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:58 pm

Vic_Watson wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:12 pm
Not if you don't know the rules.
Actually I think Konsa *might* have been trying to avoid contact, realising that Bowen was between him and the ball. In that case he could be both unlucky to make contact and the decision be correct.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Billy Hunt » Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:03 pm

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:44 pm
Oldun :newthumb: Bowen was already goal side of Konsa and running to collect the ball. The only reason he didn't was because he was fouled. Had there been no foul it's likely he would have got a shot on goal, and that's a goalscoring opportunity.
100% that.

Would Bowen have been able to shoot at goal if he wasn't fouled ?

Quite clearly yes.

So a goalscoring opportunity has been denied. I really cannot see how there's any doubt about it :chin:

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