Aston Villa 1-4 West Ham Utd (31/10/21)

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Vic_Watson » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:30 pm

Mega Ron wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:33 pm
I think the law says that if the ref, via var even, goes back to the original incident the subsequent play is seen as not having happened.
Not if he played advantage with Bowen through on goal.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by sendô » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:41 pm

Vic_Watson wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:27 pm
You actually think that incident on the halfway line was worthy of a red?
When you watch the behind the scenes video, you can clearly see Antonio get the header in ahead of Targett, who then pulls Antonio down before he can run on and chase his nod on. In real time it looked like it was by the neck, but on the video it was clear it was with an arm across his chest. So probably should have been a yellow at most.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Vic_Watson » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:45 pm

sendô wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:41 pm
When you watch the behind the scenes video, you can clearly see Antonio get the header in ahead of Targett, who then pulls Antonio down before he can run on and chase his nod on. In real time it looked like it was by the neck, but on the video it was clear it was with an arm across his chest. So probably should have been a yellow at most.
My thoughts exactly. But since Hause didn't get any card for his assualt on Fornals, that was hardly likely to earn a booking.

Great goal, though.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Hockley Hammer » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:46 pm

I always think once you are clear of the last defender against the goalkeeper you are in a goalscoring position.

The possibilities of what could happen are endless, but it is a potential goalscoring position nevertheless.

I don't have a problem with the last defender pulling back/bringing down a player getting punished by a red as long as it's consistent.

You know in the next few weeks an identical situation will be dealt with differently.

Funny how the assault on Fornals isn't being reviewed when you think Lanzini was banned retrospectively for simulation!

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Vic_Watson » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:29 pm

Cards for simulation seem to be no more. Whenever a pen gets overturned by VAR, the culprit should get booked. Did you see the Barcelona guy last night? Horrendous dive, VAR overruled the pen, ref looked at it on the monitor yet no card for cheating. Same guy then scored the winner!

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:39 pm

Hockley Hammer wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:46 pm
I always think once you are clear of the last defender against the goalkeeper you are in a goalscoring position.

The possibilities of what could happen are endless, but it is a potential goalscoring position nevertheless.

I don't have a problem with the last defender pulling back/bringing down a player getting punished by a red as long as it's consistent.

You know in the next few weeks an identical situation will be dealt with differently.

Funny how the assault on Fornals isn't being reviewed when you think Lanzini was banned retrospectively for simulation!
The professional foul 'red card' was originally brought in to penalise the really blatant misdemeanours i.e the handball on the line, or cynically down an attacker through on goal (i.e Paul Allen)

Nowadays it seems to be applied to those challenges/ incidents that are far more subjective in terms of 'clear goalscoring opportunity'. Personally i would rather less red cards were given for incidents like the ones seen at the weekend in the Arsenal, Man City and our games, not more

If there is uncertainty as to whether the attacker would get a clear scoring opportunity (which there was in all three incidents) then don't give a red card

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by LeonRivers » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:16 pm

mushy wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:28 pm
The general direction of play does not mean that the ball needs to be going directly towards the net.
That's my thinking on it and backed up by one of those celebrity referees on the radio.
And is 100% accurate. I can’t understand why so many people paid to discuss football were so focused on the direction the ball was travelling in. The only reason the ball was travelling in any direction was because the person in control of it was fouled.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Ironing Board » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:26 pm

You have to show common sense. Just because a ref played advantage, it doesn't get around the fact Fornals was assaulted. It was a blatant red card offence. It should be retrospectively punished for violent play.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by LeonRivers » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:26 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:39 pm

If there is uncertainty as to whether the attacker would get a clear scoring opportunity (which there was in all three incidents) then don't give a red card
Tony Pulis would have loved that. He’d be planning some training sessions on professional fouls.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Hockley Hammer » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:37 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:39 pm
If there is uncertainty as to whether the attacker would get a clear scoring opportunity (which there was in all three incidents) then don't give a red card
But a player committing an offence to stop a player going through is surely certain that the player has a goal scoring opportunity and wants to deny him it. Most times he would be better letting him go as he won't score anyway by the law of averages.

The player is prepared to remove any uncertainty by committing an offence so deserves to be punished..in my opinion.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:42 pm

Ironing Board wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:26 pm
You have to show common sense. Just because a ref played advantage, it doesn't get around the fact Fornals was assaulted. It was a blatant red card offence. It should be retrospectively punished for violent play.
No doubt
I think the discussion is more around the Konsa one

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Turns to Stone » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:02 pm

What's odd is how much the Villa fans were moaning about the ref. Essentially, it's a great bit of marketing on Dean Smith's part as he had an absolutely shocker, and he's managed to convince the fans that a big chunk of it was down to the ref.

In no world does Fornals or Bowen get sent off for a slightly late tackle and a shove. If either of them deserve any more than a yellow for their roles, then fairness dictates that both Hause and Targett should have walked for their assaults.

There was one definite red-card challenge in that game. And one definite professional foul. The rest were all likely yellows. Villa got away with one red a opposed to two, yet they're still moaning.

If it makes the feel better, fine. But they're in trouble. Bringing Young on in centre of midfield after 20 mins gave me horrific flashbacks to the Carlos Sanchez days.

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Vic_Watson » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:19 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:39 pm

If there is uncertainty as to whether the attacker would get a clear scoring opportunity (which there was in all three incidents) then don't give a red card
Bowen was through. How can that not be a clear goalscoring opportunity? And the law does use the word "opportunity" and not "denial of a certain goal".

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Re: ⚽ Aston Villa vs West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Billy Hunt » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:19 pm

Vic_Watson wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:19 pm
Bowen was through. How can that not be a clear goalscoring opportunity? And the law does use the word "opportunity" and not "denial of a certain goal".
Agree, there is no uncertainty whatsoever about Bowen being fouled and denied a goalscoring opportunity. I'm baffled anyone can see it differently. Hence the VAR ref (OK I'll accept it was that clown Atwell), the on pitch ref and a rent a mouth ref all thought so too

He was clear of the defender, 20 yards or so out, at a lovely angle for a shot and would have taken one if he had not been fouled. If that's not a goal scoring opportunity what is it ? What else would he have done if he hadn't been fouled ?

Ref's and VAR make some rickets, this wasn't one.

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