West Ham Utd 1-1 Brighton & Hove Albion (1/12/21)

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by ageing hammer » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:41 pm

BigFatSam wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:50 am
Over the last season and a half we have majorly had the rub of the green with VAR.
Disagree mate, yes we have had a few in our favour but not a lot the Pogba goal that the ball went behind the two managers heads, the Salah dive ( a few games ) the arsenal match last season

There's plenty more I could go back over the games but too much work.

All I know is it cost us a top four place last season.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Doc H Ball » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:43 pm

EastleighHammer16 wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:40 pm
The way Antonio ran off celebrating is enough for me to be certain he touched it.
And the defender ran off distraught. Then they both denied it :smiler:

Right, I’m not thinking about it anymore. Making me angry all over again.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Eggs'n'nuts » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:44 pm

fjthegrey wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:31 pm
I thought Antonio was offside and the fact he's about an inch away from touching the ball (it may have even touched him) means he's interfering with play.

Correct, annoying decision. Not really sure where the debate is.
The thing is with this offside debate is; does Moder (15) play everyone onside with his outstretched leg, or has the rule changed again?

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by fjthegrey » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:44 pm

Doc H Ball wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:35 pm
As for the interfering with play, how so if he doesn’t touch it and it’s an own goal? The goalie was nowhere near so it’s not like Antonio was blocking his view or movement, which is the general situation when a goal is ruled out for such.
The way I've always seen it is that you don't need to touch the ball to be interfering with play. Defenders are aware of who and what is around them more often than not, just Antonio being where he is, is enough for me to feel like he's influencing the behaviour of the opposition defenders.

I think the ball hits his leg anyway so it's academic.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by fjthegrey » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:47 pm

Eggs'n'nuts wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:44 pm
The thing is with this offside debate is; does Moder (15) play everyone onside with his outstretched leg, or has the rule changed again?
Moder is the last man. He can't be playing anybody on or offside in that position.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by kentishiron » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:49 pm

Eggs'n'nuts wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:44 pm
The thing is with this offside debate is; does Moder (15) play everyone onside with his outstretched leg, or has the rule changed again?
No because he is the only player between Antonio and the goal, you need 2….

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Doc H Ball » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:49 pm

Now I’ve got an image of Sammy Lee at Wembley ducking his head to avoid interfering with play when Liverpool scored in 1981 and it being given.

I need to move on.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Clacton-ammer » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:56 pm

Doc H Ball wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:49 pm
Now I’ve got an image of Sammy Lee at Wembley ducking his head to avoid interfering with play when Liverpool scored in 1981 and it being given.

I need to move on.
So do many others on reading the last few pages :lol: I get it though with SL, that little imp still brings back that for me too when I see him..

I'm pretty sure while Antonio celebrated he was pointing at himself claiming it, that was my initial response to it anyways.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Crossd_Hammrs » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:57 pm

kentishiron wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:24 pm
It wasn’t an own goal as the ball was heading in before the touch from Duffy, which wasn’t intentional as it was as he was landing.

No the rule is as it was, and if the ball touched Antonio it was rightly overruled.
It was going wide until Duffy touched it - it appears to hit his twice as his leg drags it too, which is what takes it close but not clearly into contact with Antonio.
He had already landed and was shuffling toward his goal line to help block the goal. He knew the ball was somewhere down there that's why he swung his leg back - to try to block it, but he was too slow it was already behind his foot - he meant to kick the ball, just not like that.
I have yet to see an angle that shows definite contact with Antonio's leg, who unless that contact occurs is not intefering. The closest angle to revealing contact is the one from behind the goal, but that's misleading as it makes it look like the ball is knocked onto Antonio's calf, bounces back away from the goal, then back into the goal off Duffy's heel. Even VAR didn't claim that contact occured.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by ageing hammer » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:58 pm

Ok my last go at this, I really need to know the rule on this so...


If the backheel from Duffy doesn't touch Antonio and goes into the net is the goal allowed or not allowed.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by S-H » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:59 pm

ageing hammer wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:58 pm
Ok my last go at this, I really need to know the rule on this so...


If the backheel from Duffy doesn't touch Antonio and goes into the net is the goal allowed or not allowed.
It doesn't need to touch him, if he's interfering with play.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by steps » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:00 pm

Moyes said in his post match presser the ball came off Duffy:

EDIT: and having watched the clip back, Antonio is only offside because their keeper comes out to punch the ball. Again, as I said in previous post, ridiculously harsh, and we were told VAR would be letting a lot of tediously long / heavily scrutinised decisions go this season for the good of the game.

Last edited by steps on Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by ageing hammer » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:02 pm

S-H wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:59 pm
It doesn't need to touch him, if he's interfering with play.
So any defender can turn and rocket a shot into his own net as long as there is a player in an offside position and it doesn't count :phew:

Never knew that rule.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by ageing hammer » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:06 pm

S-H wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:59 pm
It doesn't need to touch him, if he's interfering with play.
Moyes is disagreeing with you SH he mentioned nothing about interfering with play and thinks Duffy scored an own goal. :grin:

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Crossd_Hammrs » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:09 pm

fjthegrey wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:44 pm
The way I've always seen it is that you don't need to touch the ball to be interfering with play. Defenders are aware of who and what is around them more often than not, just Antonio being where he is, is enough for me to feel like he's influencing the behaviour of the opposition defenders.

I think the ball hits his leg anyway so it's academic.
Sorry FJ that's not the way interfering works:
The FA website wrote:Offside offence
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
interfering with an opponent by:
preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
challenging an opponent for the ball or
clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball

or

gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent
been deliberately saved by any opponent

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).
Antonio was actually moving away from the ball.
It's claimed that Duffy's contact with the ball was accidental therefore IF it touches Antonio he becomes active and therefore offside.
But how can Duffy's contact be accidental? Why has he gone to that area of the pitch and why has he swung his leg? Hoping to block any attempt to score obviously - so it's not accidental. And there have been a couple of allowed goals this season scored by players in offside positions because the ball has ricocheted off a defender.
So the issue becomes, was it a save?
Not for me as I think Duffy makes two lots of contact - the first a save - it hits him, the second contact is a result of him swinging his leg, I think intentional to play the ball out, but he just didn't get it right and knocked it backwards. He knew the ball was somewhere near his foot (from the first contact) but misjudged exactly where. Nonetheless it's a deliberate play and not a save.
Last edited by Crossd_Hammrs on Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 pm

Only Antonio will know if he touched it or not, but he certainly wheeled away in celebration like he had!

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Aceface » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:20 pm

I'm not sure it really needs to go into great depth with Masuaku about who should be marking who, whether other people were at fault etc. He possibly does get blamed for the odd goal where he's not the primary culprit.

It's enough to say that these things tend to happen rather often after he comes onto the pitch. Whether he's directly culpable, something in the general defensive shape usually gets worse, whether that's due to trust issues with the other players or his own positioning, or a mix of them.

It's a great shame you can't simply graft his close control with the ball at his feet (something we've been lacking in defence of late) onto Johnson's defensive skills and get ourselves a £60m fullback.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by irving boleyn » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:22 pm

Can we not cloud the issues by talking about "bogey" teams. :asleep:

Should future managers have a degree in Witchcraft ?

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:25 pm

It happens sometimes when he comes onto the pitch, but people just remember those occasions and not the times it doesn't
- classic confirmation bias
You also have to bear in mind that he often comes on towards the end of games when we are trying to protect a lead and thus have basically given up trying to attack and ceded possession to the opposition. it is no wonder the opposition get chances, but that was the only one they got in the last 20 minutes

It isn't as if we we watertight in the previous 70 minutes, we gave up a host of chances

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Brighton & Hove Albion: match thread

Post by Doc H Ball » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:25 pm

Clacton-ammer wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:56 pm
… that little imp still brings back that for me too when I see him..
I miss being so close to the subs, trainers, sponge man etc.

I remember Lee running past the Lower Bobby when he was on Bolton’s staff and getting a rendition of ‘He’s fat, he’s round, he bounces on the ground’ which he appreciated. Always liked him after that.

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