Russian invasion of Ukraine

[The Old Man of Storr]

I'm not answering a single question until you answer mine.

Did I spot you stamping your foot there too ?

I thought I'd just answered your question just there - I don't hate the West .

[Tenbury]

I hate the West Midlands.

[EvilC]

Did I spot you stamping your foot there too ?

I thought I'd just answered your question just there - I don't hate the West .

No, you spotted me trying to get you to answer this:

TOMOS, have you considered why Finland and Sweden might want to fast-track their applications to join NATO?

[The Old Man of Storr]

No, you spotted me trying to get you to answer this:

TOMOS, have you considered why Finland and Sweden might want to fast-track their applications to join NATO?

Jesus , you ask me so many things I fail to spot some .

Ok , from my limited knowledge of Vladimir Putin's decision making I would say that neither Sweden nor Finland had nothing to fear from Russia , I honestly think that ......when was the last time they fell out ??

Finland is a country with a population similar to that of Scotland's , they have previous with Russia but that was a long long time ago and they did sign an agreement with Russia to remain neutral [ which means NOT joining NATO ] ....however , if they feel safer joining NATO , go ahead .

Sweden , more German than Russian so I fully understand why they'd side with the Nazis in WW2 despite claiming neutrality , again if they feel safer joining NATO go ahead .

I can see why the US would want them onboard - great places to be for an invasion of Russia - great places to install missiles which will not only wipe out Moscow but wipe out any nuclear deterrent Russia has in place ....then it's saddle up them horses and charge , yessiree , Bob !!

Now , you , blind to American Foreign Policy and NATO expansionism or Russophobe ?
Which is it , I'm guessing both ??

I've another question for you - if Turkey were to be invaded by some hypothetical army , a combined force of ISIS & Kurds say , would NATO come to its aid , would Greece ?

If Russia were to invade Finland , population of 5.5 m would NATO really get involved , would the US risk WW3 over such a small population ?

I'm not sure . I think it's voluntary isn't it , it's not set in stone ..

Maybe the benefits of joining NATO aren't that great ?

Good luck to them both , I like a bit of Scandi Noir , I wouldn't want anything to spoil my television viewing .

[MB]

Finland has nothing to fear it was a long time ago...

Sweden sides with Germany because they did (though they didn't...) in the same time period. :lol:

Never change TOMOS!

[The Old Man of Storr]

Finland has nothing to fear it was a long time ago...

Sweden sides with Germany because they did (though they didn't...) in the same time period. :lol:

Never change TOMOS!

Well , although Sweden claimed to be neutral during WW2 they did supply the German Army with raw materials and provided safe passage for German soldiers to and from Norway via rail - they also laid mines in the Sea of Aland to prevent Soviet submarines from getting through .

[Danny's Dyer Acting]

I've another question for you - if Turkey were to be invaded by some hypothetical army , a combined force of ISIS & Kurds say , would NATO come to its aid , would Greece ?

If Russia were to invade Finland , population of 5.5 m would NATO really get involved , would the US risk WW3 over such a small population ?

I'm not sure . I think it's voluntary isn't it , it's not set in stone ..

It is set in stone and the answer to both of those questions is yes. If Russia attacks any NATO member every other NATO member will respond in defence.

Why do you think despite all of their sabre rattling about the dangers of countries supplying Ukraine with weapons to defend themselves they haven't actually done anything to disrupt the logistics of that? They've got no interest in even accidentally hitting troops wearing the flags of NATO countries.

[MB]

Well , although Sweden claimed to be neutral during WW2 they did supply the German Army with raw materials and provided safe passage for German soldiers to and from Norway via rail - they also laid mines in the Sea of Aland to prevent Soviet submarines from getting through .

I know exactly what Sweden did during the war. Russia also supplied the German army with raw materials while they were neutral so would you expect them to side with Germany like they did in 1939?

You cannot use the war as stick to beat Sweden with and in the next breath say Russian actions during the same war have no impact on Russian/Finnish relations as it was a long time ago. It either was (so applies to both, or it wasn't so it applies equally to both).

For the record I understand the Russian position. I studied Russian history for two years and one of my teachers was a Marxist so I "get it" and have some sympathy with Russia more generally. I even understand Putin's actions within the context of what he believes. I'm also under no illusions that the West has done similar but two wrongs and all that.

[EvilC]

Jesus , you ask me so many things I fail to spot some .

Ok , from my limited knowledge of Vladimir Putin's decision making I would say that neither Sweden nor Finland had nothing to fear from Russia , I honestly think that ......when was the last time they fell out ??

Finland is a country with a population similar to that of Scotland's , they have previous with Russia but that was a long long time ago and they did sign an agreement with Russia to remain neutral [ which means NOT joining NATO ] ....however , if they feel safer joining NATO , go ahead .

Sweden , more German than Russian so I fully understand why they'd side with the Nazis in WW2 despite claiming neutrality , again if they feel safer joining NATO go ahead .

I can see why the US would want them onboard - great places to be for an invasion of Russia - great places to install missiles which will not only wipe out Moscow but wipe out any nuclear deterrent Russia has in place ....then it's saddle up them horses and charge , yessiree , Bob !!

Now , you , blind to American Foreign Policy and NATO expansionism or Russophobe ?
Which is it , I'm guessing both ??

I've another question for you - if Turkey were to be invaded by some hypothetical army , a combined force of ISIS & Kurds say , would NATO come to its aid , would Greece ?

If Russia were to invade Finland , population of 5.5 m would NATO really get involved , would the US risk WW3 over such a small population ?

I'm not sure . I think it's voluntary isn't it , it's not set in stone ..

Maybe the benefits of joining NATO aren't that great ?

Good luck to them both , I like a bit of Scandi Noir , I wouldn't want anything to spoil my television viewing .

That doesn't really answer the question, you've just said you don't think they had anything to fear, but I suppose that's as good as it gets. But then you said that about Ukraine too. But anyway, we can continue.

If being concerned over Russia doing dangerous stuff makes me a Russophobe, I guess I'm one of those. You seem not to like NATO expansionism, which is done only when countries want to become a member of NATO, but less concerned regarding Russian expansionism, which tends to involve sending armies in, killing people, blowing stuff up.

Re Turkey - I have absolutely no idea.

Re Finland - I have absolutely no idea. I guess the point being that you are making it much higher risk for the Russians. They obviously think that there are some benefits to being in, hence the rush to join. I reckon Ukraine can see some benefits to being a member as well.

[The Old Man of Storr]

Evil -

Alright , mate we have different views concerning Russia and that's ok , I'm not going to fall out with you over it .

[taust68]

Evil -

Alright , mate we have different views concerning Russia and that's ok , I'm not going to fall out with you over it .

I think you have different views to most people on this thread

[EvilC]

Evil -

Alright , mate we have different views concerning Russia and that's ok , I'm not going to fall out with you over it .

I agree, there is no falling out. I'm just exchanging views and discussing this.

Are you blind to Russian expansionism?

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Finland is a country with a population similar to that of Scotland's , they have previous with Russia but that was a long long time ago and they did sign an agreement with Russia to remain neutral [ which means NOT joining NATO ] ....however , if they feel safer joining NATO , go ahead .

Sweden , more German than Russian so I fully understand why they'd side with the Nazis in WW2 despite claiming neutrality , again if they feel safer joining NATO go ahead .

I can see why the US would want them onboard - great places to be for an invasion of Russia - great places to install missiles which will not only wipe out Moscow but wipe out any nuclear deterrent Russia has in place ....then it's saddle up them horses and charge , yessiree , Bob !!

Ukraine signed a similar treaty for all the good it's done them.

3 countries all happy to be neutral. All 3 now picking a side because of Russian actions. They don't need the USA whispering in their ear they have Russia doing all the recruiting for NATO by proving neutrality is now a weakness not a guarantee of safety

[MB]

Are you blind to Russian expansionism?

Is it expansionism if you are taking it back?

All depends on which map you look at which brings me back to declaring war on cartographers. The root of all evil in the world.

[EvilC]

Is it expansionism if you are taking it back?

All depends on which map you look at which brings me back to declaring was on cartographers. The root of all evil in the world.

According to me - yes.

[The Old Man of Storr]

Are you blind to Russian expansionism?

Hmmm , Russia going in to help Russian-speaking Ukrainians is hardly expansionist but if they leave Ukraine without a port then yeah I agree , it is expansionist .

As for The Treaty Of Friendship which I believe Sammy is referring to , the treaty covered borders , the Crimea and such stuff and it expired on 31st March 2019 anyway , the Crimea was a gift from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 , later the Russians would argue that the transfer was unconstitutional due to only 13 members being present of the 27 needed to sign the transfer papers but what really upset the Russians was the US/German backed coup which saw off President Yanukovych in 2014 and as the Lord giveth and takes away so did the Russians [ they held a vote and everything ] - and where there's a Colour Revolution or some Flower Revolution you'll find those pesky Americans at the root of things leaving chaos and death in their wake - The Arab Spring - Georgia - Ukraine - Kyrgyztan all CIA backed all ultimately ended in failure .

[EvilC]

Hmmm , Russia going in to help Russian-speaking Ukrainians is hardly expansionist but if they leave Ukraine without a port then yeah I agree , it is expansionist .

As for The Treaty Of Friendship which I believe Sammy is referring to , the treaty covered borders , the Crimea and such stuff and it expired on 31st March 2019 anyway , the Crimea was a gift from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 , later the Russians would argue that the transfer was unconstitutional due to only 13 members being present of the 27 needed to sign the transfer papers but what really upset the Russians was the US/German backed coup which saw off President Yanukovych in 2014 and as the Lord giveth and takes away so did the Russians [ they held a vote and everything ] - and where there's a Colour Revolution or some Flower Revolution you'll find those pesky Americans at the root of things leaving chaos and death in their wake - The Arab Spring - Georgia - Ukraine - Kyrgyztan all CIA backed all ultimately ended in failure .

"Help".

They are expanding out of Russia. That is expansionist. It is simply not their country to put troops in.

[alf git]

According to me - yes.

We'll find out what they call it when the PLA go and peacekeep all the ethnic Chinese in Siberia.

[MB]

So when the US interferes they leave chaos and death in their wake but when the Russians interfere...

Yeah I think it is time for me to leave this one. Good luck Evil

[Johnny Byrne's Boots]

From the BBC News ticker:-

Russian troops are increasingly refusing to take part in combat in Ukraine, the Ukrainian defence ministry's main intelligence directorate says.

In a post on the Telegram messenging service, it says several units of the 70th Guards Motorised Regiment have openly refused to take part in the war and demanded that they be returned to the areas where they are normally deployed.

Unit commanders are making every effort to hide the cases of disobedience, the directorate says, with the most un-cooperative servicemen "sent to the most dangerous area of the front-line in the hope that they would be killed quickly", the post claims.

The agency says the Russian Federal Security Service has decided to infiltrate the regiment's units with "agents and informants".

The BBC is not able to verify this information independently.