Russian invasion of Ukraine
Moderators: Gnome, last.caress, Wilko1304, Rio, bristolhammerfc, the pink palermo, chalks
- smuts
- Posts: 33746
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:28 am
- Location: East, East, East London
- Has liked: 1498 likes
- Total likes: 1440 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
Some proper whataboutery on here trying to justify the actions of a bitter old tyrannical KGB gangster who decided to pile on more misery straight after the world spent 2 years locked inside.
If you have one inkling of sympathy for his actions then I honestly feel sorry for you.
If you have one inkling of sympathy for his actions then I honestly feel sorry for you.
- chelmsfordhammer91
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:59 pm
- Location: Broomfield, Chelmsford
- Has liked: 867 likes
- Total likes: 569 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
I struggled to get much info online about this (info that wasn't clearly biased or subjective).
I'm not sure how reputable this is (if anyone takes the time to read it, would like to know your thoughts), but found it really informative and quite concise given the detail.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... O4C9L_Im1Q
Page 20 goes into a bit more about the exact missile type, and if I'm reading it right was either part of a Russian victory day parade or already used in military exercises/combat.
I'm not sure how reputable this is (if anyone takes the time to read it, would like to know your thoughts), but found it really informative and quite concise given the detail.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... O4C9L_Im1Q
Page 20 goes into a bit more about the exact missile type, and if I'm reading it right was either part of a Russian victory day parade or already used in military exercises/combat.
- The Old Man of Storr
- Posts: 32777
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:17 am
- Location: Lost In the Recesses Of My Mind .
- Has liked: 2640 likes
- Total likes: 1746 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
chelmsfordhammer91 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:55 pm I struggled to get much info online about this (info that wasn't clearly biased or subjective).
I'm not sure how reputable this is (if anyone takes the time to read it, would like to know your thoughts), but found it really informative and quite concise given the detail.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... O4C9L_Im1Q
Page 20 goes into a bit more about the exact missile type, and if I'm reading it right was either part of a Russian victory day parade or already used in military exercises/combat.
It's very difficult to get anything concerning the Russo-Ukraine War or anything that happened during the Ukrainian Civil War without some type of propaganda on both sides - which is why I asked DL to produce his source for the Buk Missile - I was genuinely interested - proof of which I have sent him via PM but he has yet to respond . I can understand why he thought I was trying to catch him out but I don't do that , especially to mates which is why I found his response disappointing to say the least .
I've read this Bellingcat.Com report previously and while I do not doubt the sincerity behind the findings it can't be called an ' Independent Enquiry ' as such as Bellingcat are mostly Dutch and the passengers onboard Flight MH-17 were mostly Dutch , around 190 of them as I recall .
Most of that report is mentioned in this BBC ' Conspiracy Files ' report from 2016 -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35706048
There's this from The Guardian of 2014 claiming Alexander Khodakovsky [ then leader of the Vostock Battalion ] said that Ukrainian ' Rebels ' had a Buk Missile and downed MH-17 by mistake then tried covering it up - he also blames the Ukraine Government for deliberately sending the civilian aircraft over a war zone .
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/ ... ile-system
This from August 2015 [ Ray McGovern who had 27 years experience with the CIA ] .
' Propaganda , Intelligence and MH-17 '
'' Without doubt, the U.S. government has evidence that could support or refute any one of those possibilities, but it won’t tell you even in some declassified summary form. Why? Is it somehow unpatriotic to speculate that John Kerry, with his checkered reputation for truth-telling regarding Syria and other foreign crises, chose right off the bat to turn the MH-17 tragedy to Washington’s propaganda advantage, an exercise in “soft power” to throw Putin on the defensive and rally Europe behind U.S. economic sanctions to punish Russia for supporting ethnic Russians in Crimea and eastern Ukraine resisting the new U.S.-arranged political order in Kiev? ''
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/08/17/p ... and-mh-17/
- OFT
- Posts: 21533
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:59 pm
- Location: Sleepin’ in a bayou on a old rotten cot
- Has liked: 2992 likes
- Total likes: 1757 likes
- Tenbury
- Posts: 9264
- Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:28 pm
- Location: Too near Kidderminster
- Has liked: 721 likes
- Total likes: 1208 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
Why is it impossible to condemn Putin's expansionist foreign policy without being seen as an apologist for decades of American foreign policy??
Personally (as someone who as a headstrong, somewhat ethereal, student was arrested at an anti Pinochet demonstration) I find it, frankly, ridiculous, and not a little insulting.
Personally (as someone who as a headstrong, somewhat ethereal, student was arrested at an anti Pinochet demonstration) I find it, frankly, ridiculous, and not a little insulting.
- -DL-
- Bag Man
- Posts: 30097
- Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:43 am
- Has liked: 837 likes
- Total likes: 4952 likes
- Contact:
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
I opened the PM to see it was yet more and more sources of Russian propaganda - got no time to delve through it all, and I find it quite abhorrent how much bending over backwards has been taken to exonerate the Russians for everything and everything, whilst blaming everything on Ukraine and the West going back to 2014, yet Putin and the communists are being let off of the hook scott free. It's confirmation bias at it's highest level, cherry picking articles that suit your own, misplaced agenda.
I'm done.
I'm done.
- OFT
- Posts: 21533
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:59 pm
- Location: Sleepin’ in a bayou on a old rotten cot
- Has liked: 2992 likes
- Total likes: 1757 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
I let my ire get the better if me in my previous'removed' post but watching The Ukraine and its innocent people getting bombed and burnt to near oblivion while the Russian people, sit eating the Russian equivalent of a Happy Meal in the replacement for Macdonalds is frankly sickening. Now I understand that those Russians may not be aware of what their administration is up to, and that is equally as sickening, and how anyone can see it any other way is beyond my comprehension.
No offence intended.
No offence intended.
- The Old Man of Storr
- Posts: 32777
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:17 am
- Location: Lost In the Recesses Of My Mind .
- Has liked: 2640 likes
- Total likes: 1746 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
-DL- wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:22 am I opened the PM to see it was yet more and more sources of Russian propaganda - got no time to delve through it all, and I find it quite abhorrent how much bending over backwards has been taken to exonerate the Russians for everything and everything, whilst blaming everything on Ukraine and the West going back to 2014, yet Putin and the communists are being let off of the hook scott free. It's confirmation bias at it's highest level, cherry picking articles that suit your own, misplaced agenda.
I'm done.
Ah well , you couldn't be bothered to go through them all then - that's disappointing .
Good luck for the future .
It was brilliant here here while it lasted and I had a great time mostly , lots of good people on here but under the circumstances I can't stay a member of this place now - not being a drama queen but I meant what I said in my pm .
Cheers , Guys .
- RichieRiv
- Posts: 20858
- Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:35 pm
- Location: https://www.hireahero.org.uk/
- Has liked: 307 likes
- Total likes: 803 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
I wonder whether MI5 still maintain lists of communist party members?
- Bend it like Repka
- Posts: 15838
- Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:05 pm
- Location: Shaking my head in despair at it all.
- Has liked: 357 likes
- Total likes: 794 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
What circumstances? Most people thinking you are being an apologist for a despicable man who has presided over the death of thousands? Sorry, you have constantly downplayed what has happened to Ukraine. What do you expect?The Old Man of Storr wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:12 am but under the circumstances I can't stay a member of this place now -
If you can't hack rowing your boat against the tide of opinion then that makes your position even weaker. No one has abused you, we are just pointing out you are posting nonsense.
- Loftyhammer
- Posts: 1949
- Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:29 pm
- Location: Northampton-by-the-Sea
- Has liked: 2190 likes
- Total likes: 167 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
I've tried to think how best to articulate how I can't get my head round any kind of understanding or even sympathy towards what Russia is currently doing. I do get there is history, particularly with US and NATO etc. and in various parts of the world,,,,but if you want to, you can just keep going back and back and back to support an argument as to "who started it".
For me it's pretty simple. **Bit like when we smash Norwich 4-0 and people say "well it was only Norwich" - we tend to say, you can only play what's in front of you. Well, in my opinion (and it is only my opinion!), we can only respond to what is going on in front of us right now; and to me that's very straightforward: one country invaded another sovereign country and very much appears to be committing war crimes left right & centre and just totalling everything in it's path in said country.
To me there is no "understanding" or pointing fingers elsewhere and blaming other countries - this is entirely on Russia and arguably one man only.
Gawd knows what the solution is mind
** quite probably a terrible analogy!
For me it's pretty simple. **Bit like when we smash Norwich 4-0 and people say "well it was only Norwich" - we tend to say, you can only play what's in front of you. Well, in my opinion (and it is only my opinion!), we can only respond to what is going on in front of us right now; and to me that's very straightforward: one country invaded another sovereign country and very much appears to be committing war crimes left right & centre and just totalling everything in it's path in said country.
To me there is no "understanding" or pointing fingers elsewhere and blaming other countries - this is entirely on Russia and arguably one man only.
Gawd knows what the solution is mind
** quite probably a terrible analogy!
- Shy Ted
- Posts: 2031
- Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:48 pm
- Location: Norfolk Broads
- Has liked: 453 likes
- Total likes: 188 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
This is the true and only West Ham United Family Site, don't stay away to long TOMAS.The Old Man of Storr wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:12 am Ah well , you couldn't be bothered to go through them all then - that's disappointing .
Good luck for the future .
It was brilliant here here while it lasted and I had a great time mostly , lots of good people on here but under the circumstances I can't stay a member of this place now - not being a drama queen but I meant what I said in my pm .
Cheers , Guys .
- MB
- Cricket's Darren Anderton
- Posts: 25148
- Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:13 pm
- Has liked: 5555 likes
- Total likes: 3053 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
There isn't an easy one!Loftyhammer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:20 pm To me there is no "understanding" or pointing fingers elsewhere and blaming other countries - this is entirely on Russia and arguably one man only.
Gawd knows what the solution is mind
I try to judge the action and the motives behind it rather than just look at who is behind it.
Iraq vs Afghanistan for example. Both technically invasions to overthrow the government (you can argue how legitimate said governments were...) but one more justified than the other in my mind. Both ultimately failures which cost lots of innocent people their lives but the motive behind Afghanistan meant it was a worth a try.
Same here. Arming a legitimately elected government to help them defend themselves against aggression by a neighbour cannot be wrong IMO. If "the West" start giving them the serious means to take the fight to Russia then it gets a bit more blurry.
I do agree with the first part of your post as well. If you look hard enough you can always find a reason in history.
- delbert
- Posts: 27172
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:27 pm
- Location: Barking, home of the slowly meandering Prius
- Has liked: 698 likes
- Total likes: 697 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
If they do then they ain't doing much with them, one of the twats was a member of the Covid Sage team......
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
What a pathetic and childish way to close this debate off. If you cant handle people questioning your stance on things, then dont share it. RidiculousThe Old Man of Storr wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:12 am Ah well , you couldn't be bothered to go through them all then - that's disappointing .
Good luck for the future .
It was brilliant here here while it lasted and I had a great time mostly , lots of good people on here but under the circumstances I can't stay a member of this place now - not being a drama queen but I meant what I said in my pm .
Cheers , Guys .
Online
- Johnny Byrne's Boots
- Posts: 32128
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:19 pm
- Location: Care home dodger
- Has liked: 1786 likes
- Total likes: 2071 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
Row as Lithuania blocks goods to Kaliningrad
They don't seem happy.Russia has summoned the EU ambassador in response to Lithuania's ban on some goods being transported by rail to the Russian territory of Kaliningrad.
Lithuania says it is bound by EU sanctions, imposed as part of a series of measures taken over Moscow's invasion of Ukraine.
The Kremlin has called the measures "unprecedented" and "illegal".
Russia's foreign ministry has threatened "to take actions to protect its national interests".
Kaliningrad - which has no land border with Russia - was annexed from Germany in 1945 and remains of strategic importance to Russia.
more...
- MB
- Cricket's Darren Anderton
- Posts: 25148
- Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:13 pm
- Has liked: 5555 likes
- Total likes: 3053 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
Read that this morning JBB. Looks like a serious danger of escalation if not handled correctly, but at the same time you can understand Baltic countries being concerned about what is being shipped to what is basically Russia's fortress on the Baltic.
From a Russian perspective, Kaliningrad is so tied up with the second world war and the politics around it.
I don't see how this ends well.
From a Russian perspective, Kaliningrad is so tied up with the second world war and the politics around it.
I don't see how this ends well.
- -DL-
- Bag Man
- Posts: 30097
- Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:43 am
- Has liked: 837 likes
- Total likes: 4952 likes
- Contact:
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
Was just saying to the Mrs, what with the sanctions and this war having more of an effect on us economically, than it would appear to be having on Russia, what with gas, oil, fuel, etc all going sky-high because of it and affecting the major economies in Europe and elsewhere, could we soon start to see Western Governments start to lean on Ukraine a little to find a compromise to end the war?
Something along the lines of give up Donbass, end the war, so we can all get back to normal, the oil and gas flows again, you can export your grains and vegetable oil, and we'll admit you to The EU and help you rebuild your country.
Something along the lines of give up Donbass, end the war, so we can all get back to normal, the oil and gas flows again, you can export your grains and vegetable oil, and we'll admit you to The EU and help you rebuild your country.
Online
- Johnny Byrne's Boots
- Posts: 32128
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:19 pm
- Location: Care home dodger
- Has liked: 1786 likes
- Total likes: 2071 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
^^^^The trouble with doing that, and it does sound like a favourable compromise, is that it may encourage Russia to have another nibble at a bit more of Ukraine. They have plenty of cannon fodder waiting to be called up whose loss won't cause Putin to lose one second of sleep (it's not as if he needs their votes to stay in power ), and if he can get back more of what he considers historically Russia with his old military equipment and knowing what he knows now about Europe's dependence on his oil, gas and control of grain exports, why wouldn't he?
- MB
- Cricket's Darren Anderton
- Posts: 25148
- Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:13 pm
- Has liked: 5555 likes
- Total likes: 3053 likes
Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine
Interesting question DL. Almost exactly how Germany seem to have dealt with this.
The problem, based on what I have read, is that concessions in Ukraine are extremely unpopular. "The West" would have to threaten to withhold weapons with the risks associated with that. Given the US is the main provider of those weapons (and the least impacted) I'm not sure who has the clout to do it externally. It would take the mid terms being a disaster and internal pressure in the US.
Boris, to his credit, has at least raised this conflict may not resolve quickly.
There really aren't easy choices here.
The problem, based on what I have read, is that concessions in Ukraine are extremely unpopular. "The West" would have to threaten to withhold weapons with the risks associated with that. Given the US is the main provider of those weapons (and the least impacted) I'm not sure who has the clout to do it externally. It would take the mid terms being a disaster and internal pressure in the US.
Boris, to his credit, has at least raised this conflict may not resolve quickly.
There really aren't easy choices here.