Russian invasion of Ukraine

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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by RichieRiv »

Well Trump had a very different approach to foreign policy, but we can't talk about him.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by DaveWHU1964 »

Why can’t we talk about Trump? Answer. We can. I’m not a fan of Much of what America has done over the years. But they are not to blame for everything. Others do bad things too.

On THIS thread, how the f*** is America
to blame for Russia CHOOSING to invade Ukraine? There can be more than one bad guy on the planet. Not only that, but there can be a worst bad guy in this particular situation and in this one there evidently is.

I think it’s amazing that people are seeing America as the main player in this. It comes across as people trying to say the blame lies equally between Russia and the the US when quite clearly it doesn’t.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by EvilC »

Now that Putin has finally admitted that he is reclaiming “Russian lands” in Ukraine, we can put all this Mearsheimer stuff to bed.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bend it like Repka »

the pink palermo wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:35 pm I'm sure you are well read on American foreign policy Bendy - you are, aren't you ?

Can you tell me how it has changed in the past 70 years , if it has changed, at all.

No rush, take all day Sunday on it.
Well firstly your argument is based on two wrongs making a right, which is hardly much of a foundation is it? Let's stand back and watch Ukraine fall because hey, look at Iraq.

Of course the whole cold war era has seen both superpowers meddle and control many countries across the world. Once Gorbachev arrived we had hoped both would wind back their games and cool things off somewhat. The general flow had been better for a while, but Putin in his old age seems to want to turn the clock back. I would say that since Obama the US hasn't really been provactive in Europe in any way to threaten Russia. Putin took back Crimea out the blue and has fuelled the Donbas situation for a long while now. Russian military presence around us has definitely increased again in the last decade.

Outside Europe you are indeed right to bring up Iraq, and Bush certainly is on a par with Putin there. The US allowed 9/11 to drag it into a war based falsely on revenge and was a huge error. But that and afganistan are still not the same as what is happening in Ukraine. Saddam Hussein and the Taliban were not democratically elected angels, that is not to say that gives the US the right to invade those countries, but it does mean that invading Ukraine with the purpose of removing Zelenskyy and inserting a Russian president has no defence. Not that the outcome in either case was good, but the general population was happy to be rid of both the Taliban and Hussein. You cannot say that about Ukraine. There simply is no justification for what Russia are doing.

So my question is the same to you as it was to Tomos. Where is the line the west should draw? If we stand back and let Ukraine fall, then it's Moldova, who has a small pro Russian element. Maybe the baltic states? Putin has just compared himself to Peter the Great, so Sweden on the menu?

If you aren't willing to draw a line, then you just resemble Britain and France in 1938 and we all know how that turned out. That to me is clear as day even by 9.08 on a Sunday morning....
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by MB »

Think you have to be careful putting Iraq and Afghanistan in the same bucket.

Afghanistan was a NATO operation under a UN Security mandate and very different to the US led invasion of Iraq which may as well have been called Operation Daddy Issues.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by Tenbury »

the pink palermo wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:35 pm I'm sure you are well read on American foreign policy Bendy - you are, aren't you ?

Can you tell me how it has changed in the past 70 years , if it has changed, at all.

No rush, take all day Sunday on it.
If you think American foreign policy wasn't different under the Carter administration, then you need to to take longer than 24 hrs.The use of sweeping generalisations to describe the US or Soviet/Russian foreign policy since 1945 is fatuous,and best left to Express readers.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by the pink palermo »

DaveWHU1964 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:57 am I’m not a fan of Much of what America has done over the years. But they are not to blame for everything. Others do bad things too.

On THIS thread, how the **** is America
to blame for Russia CHOOSING to invade Ukraine? There can be more than one bad guy on the planet. Not only that, but there can be a worst bad guy in this particular situation and in this one there evidently is.

I think it’s amazing that people are seeing America as the main player in this.
I'm not sure people are seeing America as the main player in this .But they are a player, and that's a result of it's fairly consistent foreign policy in the post war era.

They're also a player in the South China seas, gradually building a military presence to ensure that when the time comes they can box China in from a trade perspective.

They're also a player in Latin America, and with no apology to Bendy whatsoever, maybe now is the time to remind people they orchestrated the overthrow of a democratically elected Government in Chile, as well as provide significant training to every tin pot dictatorship in LA via the school of the Americas programme. I've already mentioned the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and the USA's ongoing punishment of Cuba for 60 years with an economic blocade.

Being a player doesn't necessarily mean direct involvement : a decision not to get involved at the sharp end but choosing instead to steer and influence from Washington using more subtle methods is just as bad. Hoes your day going in Yemen ? A bit **** ? Yeah, sorry, but we prefer the other guys.

Interference in elections ? The Balkans. No question.

In short, the USA has **** stirred over the entire ****ing planet with one single objective : defend or improve it's own interests.

Now Russia , too, has engaged in various and numerous nefarious activities, seeking as it has to remain relevant on the global stage. China and in more recent years the EU have also started to throw their weight around, quietly, subtlety. An invitation to join either the EU or NATO is seen by the Russians as a country choosing to align with a Western Bloc they increasingly feel threatened by. For the West to simply dismiss that as "democracy in action" is both naive and disingenuous.

Having said all of that, to pick up on your point of bad guy and worse guy, there's no doubt that on THIS occasion the worse guy is Putin. He needs offing before we all get dragged in to this.

I'm far from happy with the Wurst guy either - the Germans. Their refusal to switch off the Russian gas in the summer means Putin will almost certainly weaponise it come the winter. Germany has for many years been at the heart of an expansionist EU policy, moving ever Eastwards, the idea being to put as much distance between it's border and Russias -Angela Merkel was terrified of the Russians. Thats fine, disguise it as economic expansion but in reality it was always about putting miles between two nations.

The problem of course, is it won't make the appropriate sacrifices itself - switching off the gas, but wants to see everyone else do it's fighting for it.Until the gas is off, not one NATO troop should be committed.

This war is not 107 days old, it's close on a decade now. The time to make a stand was the day Putin took the Crimea. Russia should have been hit then with economic sanctions, the gas should have been off then, the oil refused then.
At the same time, mind you, the USA should have had their wings clipped. We found out all about them in the ( sorry bendy) Suez crisis. Special relationship my arse.

It's always been America Uber alles. We should keep them at arms length, they really are not that much better than the rest.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by EvilC »

the pink palermo wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:42 amI'm far from happy with the Wurst guy either - the Germans. Their refusal to switch off the Russian gas in the summer means Putin will almost certainly weaponise it come the winter. Germany has for many years been at the heart of an expansionist EU policy, moving ever Eastwards, the idea being to put as much distance between it's border and Russias -Angela Merkel was terrified of the Russians. Thats fine, disguise it as economic expansion but in reality it was always about putting miles between two nations.
Them not switching it off now makes the consequences of the Russians turning it off in the winter less severe. The problem isn't that they won't switch it off now (and I wouldn't if I were running Germany, the consequences would be too severe), the problem is that they got so hooked in the first place and weren't frightened enough of them, which has resulted in said addiction and a complete lack of viable alternatives. Part of the reason Putin invaded when he did was because there was already an acute shortage of gas IMO - he had a point of maximum leverage.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by chelmsfordhammer91 »

As with most things, the truth most likely lays somewhere in the middle.

Tomos does raise some points worth discussion and Pinky's post is more balanced, and apart from the point Evil raised, is near how I also feel.

I'll be busy getting the splinters out my ar*e when I get off the fence!
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by DaveWHU1964 »

the pink palermo wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:42 am Having said all of that, to pick up on your point of bad guy and worse guy, there's no doubt that on THIS occasion the worse guy is Putin.
The bottom line.

Pinks, I agree with much of your post, particularly the historical stuff and I understand how a good man like Pete (happy break mate :) ) can have a deep mistrust of American intentions. Of course they are a player, we all to one degree or another are. They are just the biggest player on the planet. But as you say, not on this particular occasion. That just has to be remembered and acknowledged. This one is on Russia.

For what it's worth with what is happening for western countries with their economies exacerbated further by this war, I think the financial impact we are going into will be huge. More will come to Pete's view on this. Putin is playing a longer game - he assumes that for a myriad of reasons, his people can take the pain more than the west's can. Sadly, he may well be right.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by MB »

chelmsfordhammer91 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:36 am As with most things, the truth most likely lays somewhere in the middle.

Tomos does raise some points worth discussion and Pinky's post is more balanced, and apart from the point Evil raised, is near how I also feel.

I'll be busy getting the splinters out my ar*e when I get off the fence!
Think I posted about 30 pages back that this is all shades of grey so I'm probably on the same fence.

I just struggle to judge the Yanks too harshly when all they did is pick up the baton we dropped. They haven't don't anything we didn't invent.

Even the Russian situation is one we have played around in for a long time.

People forget the past to quickly. They act like China is something new when this is the third time they have been in this position in their history. Our fingerprints are all over that one as well.

As for Ukraine, were any of the NATO countries in a position to do much in 2014? Still fully deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq (to lesser extent). I doubt there was much to spare at the time, especially the types of heavy weapons the Ukrainians would have needed to fight back.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by Monkeybubbles »

Putin dies and goes to hell, but after a while, he is given a day off for good behavior.

So he goes to Moscow, enters a bar, orders a drink, and asks the bartender:

-Is Crimea ours?

-Yes, it is.

-And the Donbas?

-Also ours.

-And Kyiv?

-We got that too.

Satisfied, Putin drinks, and asks:

-Thanks, how much do I owe you?

-5 euros.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by The Old Man of Storr »

[quote=-DL- post_id=6267611 time=1654978522 user_id=16948

Of course, Russia said it wasn't them Guv and it wasn't a Russian made STA missile and said it was Ukraine that shot it down, despite fragments of the missile that were removed from the pilot and first officer's bodies conclusively proving it was a Russian Buk missile, a fact verified by a team of international observers - a missile system that the Ukrainian Government didn't have access to.
[/quote]


This from a BBC report from 2015 -

'' Far from the front line, I was shown inside a Ukrainian Army Buk missile launcher. The mass of switches and indicators clearly needs to be operated by highly trained military personnel. As defence analyst Igor Sutyagin points out, that expertise is present in the Russian Army, it is not likely to be present among the rebel militia. ''

This is a list of Weaponry used during the Ukrainian Civil War of 2014 onward -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R ... t#Anti-air

If you scroll down to the Ukraine Army list you come across the 9K37 - BUK

Anti-air
ZU-23
S-300[36]
9K33 Osa
9K35 Strela-10
9K37 Buk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system



p.s. I'm not saying the Ukraine Army fired that Buk Missile by the way , only that they had them as part of their inventory .
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by Puff Daddy »

Who is going to pay for the reconstruction of Ukraine once this war is over? Of course, it should be the perpetrater, which is Russia, but with their economy severely damaged by economic sanctions, that is going to be a problem, is it not?
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by -DL- »

The Old Man of Storr wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:50 am



p.s. I'm not saying the Ukraine Army fired that Buk Missile by the way , only that they had them as part of their inventory .
They never had the particular type that was used against MH17 - I should have been clearer. Of course, like most weapons systems, they all come under the same name but have multiple variants.

Why is that the only thing you've picked out of my posts though, if you don't mind me asking?
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by The Old Man of Storr »

-DL- wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:10 pm They never had the particular type that was used against MH17 - I should have been clearer. Of course, like most weapons systems, they all come under the same name but have multiple variants.

Why is that the only thing you've picked out of my posts though, if you don't mind me asking?

Last time I read up about Flight MH-17 was a few months back and the Russians were denying they'd done , they said the Ukraine Army had Buk Missile Launchers so I sought evidence whether they had them or not - what sort of Buk Missile was it then if it wasn't the one stated ?
I'm genuinely curious - you obviously know what type of missile it was - if you could provide a source that would be good , not that I don't believe you or anything . :wink:
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by The Old Man of Storr »

-DL- wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:10 pm

Why is that the only thing you've picked out of my posts though, if you don't mind me asking?
So , I went back to read what your other post said - you talked about the Russians you knew not liking Putin as opposed to the Russians I knew [ all West Ham supporters by the way - got a picture of them in their West Ham kit and everything ] supporting Putin - your other post stated that the Ukraine Army didn't have the missiles that shot down MH-17 which I thought was a Buk Missile - I didn't know there were different types of Buk Missiles and would be interested in hearing exactly which Buk Missile it was along with a source . :newthumb:
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by Denbighammer »

Buk in the USSR?
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by -DL- »

The Old Man of Storr wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:20 pm So , I went back to read what your other post said - you talked about the Russians you knew not liking Putin as opposed to the Russians I knew [ all West Ham supporters by the way - got a picture of them in their West Ham kit and everything ] supporting Putin - your other post stated that the Ukraine Army didn't have the missiles that shot down MH-17 which I thought was a Buk Missile - I didn't know there were different types of Buk Missiles and would be interested in hearing exactly which Buk Missile it was along with a source . :newthumb:
I'm sure you would be interested Pete, but I neither have the time nor inclination to trawl the internet trying to find out the ins and out of the exact specifics. It was on an investigative documentary a while back, the channel of which I do not not remember.

You've disappointed me mate, the way you've gone on with this, failing to see the barbarism that your mates in the east have done - and it's a shame we're going to have a major difference of opinion on this, you coming across like there's some 'gotcha' moment.

You're not interested at all - you're trying to be a smart arse, and I'm pretty sure you can go on the font of all knowledge of Wiki, and find out that different marks of Buk contained different types of shrapnel within them - of varying shapes and sizes depending on what the mark/specification was (it's not the explosives of a STA missile that does the damage, it's the shrapnel within the war head) - and it was those bits of shrapnel that were pulled from the bodies of the aircrew going about their business, along with the men, women, and children that were blown out of the skies by your mates whilst no doubt all excited about going away on their holidays. The Ukrainian military didn't have the version that contained that particular type of shrapnel within the war-head. Of course the Russians will deny it, and yet again you choose to believe it.

You do you mate, I'll do me - but your justification and complete exoneration and support for this evil tyrant, and trying to switch the blame for his actions on to other countries (don't bother quoting your YouTube academic either, I watched some of his drivel and turned off), whilst trying to trip me up - and with respect, you can shove that winky emoji up your jacksie.

The info is out there, you can find it if you wish, or rather you'll no doubt find something that suits your pro-Russian Communist bias instead, but I'm now done here, and sadly, that's not all I'm done with, because occasionally, somebody's views can be so incompatible with your own, there's no way of compromise.
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Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine

Post by The Old Man of Storr »

-DL- wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:33 pm I'm sure you would be interested Pete, but I neither have the time nor inclination to trawl the internet trying to find out the ins and out of the exact specifics. It was on an investigative documentary a while back, the channel of which I do not not remember.

You've disappointed me mate, the way you've gone on with this, failing to see the barbarism that your mates in the east have done - and it's a shame we're going to have a major difference of opinion on this, you coming across like there's some 'gotcha' moment.

You're not interested at all - you're trying to be a smart arse, and I'm pretty sure you can go on the font of all knowledge of Wiki, and find out that different marks of Buk contained different types of shrapnel within them -

You do you mate, I'll do me - but your justification and complete exoneration and support for this evil tyrant, and trying to switch the blame for his actions on to other countries (don't bother quoting your YouTube academic either, I watched some of his drivel and turned off), whilst trying to trip me up - and with respect, you can shove that winky emoji up your jacksie.


You've honestly taken this the wrong way - I am genuinely interested - I have kept notes from both sides of the argument from the beginning of this war [ I could send you them in a PM ] - as for MH-17 , I've read the Dutch report , I've read the BBC report , I've read the BBC Conspiracy Files report on the subject , I've read ex-CIA employee , Ray McGovern's report - you've taken me the exact wrong way and my winky thing was just a message to someone I considered a mate - I HONESTLY was NOT trying to catch you out , I wouldn't do that to you on an open forum and I'm genuinely sad that you should think otherwise .
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