Russian invasion of Ukraine

[The Old Man of Storr]

Ukraine targets Russian oil pipeline.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... ne-attack/

I can't see how anyone could object to that - I could understand the West's concerns if Ukrainian pilots started flying F -16s over Moscow but to blow up a Russian pipeline via drone , why not ?

[MB]

[The Old Man of Storr]

Ok , here's a question for you -

Why did the US choose to arm and train Ukrainians and continue this war into what could turn out to be years instead of granting Ukraine NATO membership as soon as Zelensky was voted in as President ?

Instead of no war they have a country keeping the Russians occupied in perpetuity with zero American casualties and I'm guessing these munitions ain't free - so they keep Russia occupied with zero US casualties and they're making trillions of $$ too .

Certainly a better plan than Korea , Vietnam and Afghanistan .

[Hummer_I_mean_Hammer]

ToMoS, always has been like that. Pretty sure that the US armed the Afghan forces, the Russians armed the viet-cong, etc

[Bend it like Repka]

Ok , here's a question for you -

Why did the US choose to arm and train Ukrainians and continue this war into what could turn out to be years instead of granting Ukraine NATO membership as soon as Zelensky was voted in as President ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 39085.html

"In 2009, the Declaration to Complement the Nato-Ukraine Charter was signed, giving the NUC a role in promoting with domestic reform initiatives concerning everything from politics, the economy and legal system to national security and the military.

Aims are drawn up and agreed as part of an Annual National Programme, which is reviewed by allies annually to assess Ukraine’s progress with a view to possible future admission to Nato membership, although “the responsibility for implementation falls primarily on Ukraine”.

But full membership remains elusive and would involve a lengthy process requiring a Membership Action Plan being signed off by all 30 of the alliance’s current member states."

Now I have answered yet another of your random questions. Any chance that you can finally address one of mine?

In you peace proposal where you said Ukraine should just sign away chunks of stolen land, can you look at the map and suggest what Russia should concede, and what guarantees it should offer?

[alf git]

In you peace proposal where you said Ukraine should just sign away chunks of stolen land, can you look at the map and suggest what Russia should concede, and what guarantees it should offer?

They could guarantee to respect the independence, sovereignty and borders of Ukraine.
Oh, wait.

[MB]

Ok , here's a question for you -

Why did the US choose to arm and train Ukrainians and continue this war into what could turn out to be years instead of granting Ukraine NATO membership as soon as Zelensky was voted in as President ?

Instead of no war they have a country keeping the Russians occupied in perpetuity with zero American casualties and I'm guessing these munitions ain't free - so they keep Russia occupied with zero US casualties and they're making trillions of $$ too .

Certainly a better plan than Korea , Vietnam and Afghanistan .

The US and NATO are two different things as much as it suits your twisted narrative to pretend they are not. See for example Sweden's struggles to join.

The simple answer if you'd bothered to read the twitter thread I posted is Ukraine never formally applied. There were talks in 2008/09 and need for reform etc but no road map, timeline or formal application.

The fall of the pro Russian Ukrainian Government wasn't about NATO, it was about the murder of protesters after the plan to join the EU was withdrawn. Funnily enough most people don't like governments who kill their own people and it is a bit of a trend with those friendly with Russia.

Russia saw their influence over Ukraine wane and threw the hissy fit which ultimately leads us to where we are today.

[The Old Man of Storr]

Now I have answered yet another of your random questions. Any chance that you can finally address one of mine

In you peace proposal where you said Ukraine should just sign away chunks of stolen land, can you look at the map and suggest what Russia should concede, and what guarantees it should offer?

'' In light of Russia’s attack, Ukraine does now have the support of all 30, with the likes of France and Germany dropping their historic objections in the greater interests of protecting the country.

However, a key requirement for admission is that any applicant nation has no “unresolved external territorial disputes” outstanding, a condition that could not be met even before 24 February because of the ongoing fighting in the Donbas since 2014, which has seen the Ukrainian military battling pro-Russian separatist rebels in a conflict that has cost some 14,000 lives over the last eight years. ''


That ' report ' is so full of self -contradictions - Oh , it couldn't join before because ' it had unresolved external territorial disputes ' but now has the full support of all 30 members [ I thought NATO had 33 members but ok ] - and what it doesn't state is that there was a full-on Civil War going on in Ukraine since 2014 , Ukrainians were fighting Ukrainians , Ukrainians were not fighting ' Separatists ' as they are called , they are Ukrainians .

Germany invaded Poland , Czechoslavakia [ Sudetenland ] , Austria , Belgium , Netherlands , Luxembourg , Yugoslavia , Alsace-Lorraine , the Memel Territory of Lithuania NOT to mention Russia YET within 10 years of WW2 finishing they had been accepted into the fold of NATO . Bit weird that don't you agree ?


As for your question of what Russia should concede and what guarantees it should offer if a Peace Agreement can be reached -

Well , I guess it depends on who ' wins ' and who ' loses ' the war or are you talking about an immediate cessation of hostilities now ?

If Russia loses , then I guess they return home and Ukraine joins NATO [ as long as Ukrainian Nationalists make peace with Ukrainians living in the Donbas region ] - should Russia win the war then I believe Ukraine should concede the Donbas and allow independence for Luhansk and Donetsk and NATO should stop supplying Ukraine with weapons .

If you're talking about an immediate cessation of hostilities then I guess NATO , Ukraine and Russia along with China and the Vatican will have to get around a table to see what they can come up with . Give Ukraine NATO membership , the Donbas independence and Russia should give guarantees not to invade again .

If you want to give me your support for World President you can contact me here at #NicerthanJesus .
Donations welcome .
Thank you for giving an Old Man On Drugs a Free Pass , you're an Honorable Man .

[EvilC]

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[Bend it like Repka]

If you're talking about an immediate cessation of hostilities then I guess NATO , Ukraine and Russia along with China and the Vatican will have to get around a table to see what they can come up with . Give Ukraine NATO membership , the Donbas independence

So to be clear, you are proposing Russia withdraws from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia completely.

What about areas of Donesk that Russia does not hold, Lyman, Kramatorsk, where people welcomed being liberated back from the Russians?

Who gets them?

and Russia should give guarantees not to invade again .

You think they would be worth the paper they were written on? You trust Putin as a man of his word?

[The Old Man of Storr]

You trust Putin as a man of his word?

I'd trust him more than I trust Boris Johnson .

I'd trust him more than I trusted Bush Jnr . or Blair .

[EvilC]

Luckily for you none of those people that you trust less than Putin are in charge of anything of much relevance these days. As usual, you haven’t answered the question properly.

Here are some things to consider:
1. Does the Donbas want independence? Please don’t attempt to answer this using data from a sham referendum or what they might have wanted years ago, as circumstances are different.
2. If it does and it is granted, how can you trust Russia (or if I’m you, how do I trust America) to stay out of their business?
3. If an independent Donbas elects to be part of Ukraine, or Russia, or the EU, or NATO in future, do you expect either side to respect that decision?
4. The two parties do not trust each other. This makes any sort of good faith negotiation pretty much impossible

[delbert]

I'd trust him more than I trust Boris Johnson .

I'd trust him more than I trusted Bush Jnr . or Blair .

You might, not many others would. You ain't alone in your beliefs though mate, not so much the pro Russian bit, that's well out there. But more your not totally onside with Ukraine bit, I've got a couple of ex military mates who think the same* (one's a proper conspiracist and is into every weird theory imaginable).

Germany invaded Poland , Czechoslavakia [ Sudetenland ] , Austria , Belgium , Netherlands , Luxembourg , Yugoslavia , Alsace-Lorraine , the Memel Territory of Lithuania NOT to mention Russia YET within 10 years of WW2 finishing they had been accepted into the fold of NATO . Bit weird that don't you agree ?

Germany and Russia invaded Poland, proper spit roasted the poor ****ers.
West Germany became a liberal democracy that joined NATO and re armed as a consequence of East Germany becoming a puppet Commie extension of the Soviet Union, you know how Russia loves to have barrier countries? Well West Germany was Europe's, and as such needed arming.


*Only a couple mind, all the others think they're on something.....

[MB]

1. Does the Donbas want independence? Please don’t attempt to answer this using data from a sham referendum or what they might have wanted years ago, as circumstances are different.

Is there anyone left to vote?

Between the ones the Russian army has massacred and the ones they have equipped with second world war equipment and used as artillery spotters (I.e. getting them to advance until the Ukrainian guns open up on them) I doubt many are left to care!

DPR and LPR units suffered 60%+ casualties as Russia fed them into the meat grinder and they've had to be reformed with mobilised soldiers from elsewhere in Russia which suggests manpower issues.

We really are at the stage where this is just about one man's ego.

[Plashet Grove Pete]

I'd trust him more than I trust Boris Johnson .

I'd trust him more than I trusted Bush Jnr . or Blair .

Sorry TOMOS, I've read your posts on this topic with interest and at times incredulity, but this is just showing how brainwashed you've become. Absolutely horrendous comment.

[Johnny Byrne's Boots]

I'm a bit puzzled. According to Putin because some people in Ukraine speak Russian as a first language, where they live should be part of Russia. Is this right? Quite a few people in Bradford speak Urdu as their first language, same with Southall and Gujurati. Should they be invaded too?

[Gaz]

I'd trust him more than I trust Boris Johnson .

I'd trust him more than I trusted Bush Jnr . or Blair .

On the basis that Bush and Blair turned a blind eye to the Moscow bombings and atrocities in Chechnya, and were responsible for the Iraq wars and the ‘war on terror’ I’d cast them as untrustworthy as well. But then Putin is a tyrannical, evil, war mongering, murderous dictator so you know, choose your ‘least worst’ ally wisely.

[MB]

Just the visually confirmed ones

[Bend it like Repka]

I'd trust him more than I trust Boris Johnson .

Or I'd trust you to answer a question properly.

I'm afraid any credibility you had left is in tatters. I mean Boris was Boris, not doubt, but you'd trust him over a man who:

1) Makes his political opponents accidentally fall out of windows
2) Tells his own soldiers they are not even going into battle when he starts a war
3) Tells state TV his spies were sightseeing in Salisbury and not killing people with Novichok

Its not a good look.

[delbert]

An insight into the nitty gritty of helping the good people of the Ukraine get rid of it's unwanted guests: