Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Georgee Paris]

Sadam or Hitler

[The Old Man of Storr]

Russia have no problem whatsoever with Sweden [ who despite remaining ' neutral ' in WW2 supported Nazi Germany with various materials , iron ore etc , some even joined the Waffen SS ] and Finland [ who started off by supporting Nazi Germany's war on Russia before changing sides and supporting the Allies ] joining NATO - what they object to is the US placing missiles within these countries .

[Hummer_I_mean_Hammer]

ToMos, your sources....?

You know the rules. Pictures or it didn't happen.

[MB]

Russia have no problem whatsoever with Sweden [ who despite remaining ' neutral ' in WW2 supported Nazi Germany with various materials , iron ore etc , some even joined the Waffen SS ] and Finland [ who started off by supporting Nazi Germany's war on Russia before changing sides and supporting the Allies ] joining NATO - what they object to is the US placing missiles within these countries .

Not sure that is true when both countries have been clear they won’t allow permanent bases or missiles in their country.

What (I imagine) worries Russia is NATO controlling access to and from the Baltic. It leaves Russia effectively landlocked what with the ongoing tensions with Turkey and is probably part of the reason for the campaign in Ukraine. Wouldn’t be the first time they’ve gone to war over that issue.

[alf git]

Russia have no problem whatsoever with Sweden [ who despite remaining ' neutral ' in WW2 supported Nazi Germany with various materials , iron ore etc , some even joined the Waffen SS ] and Finland [ who started off by supporting Nazi Germany's war on Russia before changing sides and supporting the Allies ] joining NATO - what they object to is the US placing missiles within these countries .

You forgot the bit where the Soviets attacked Finland in 1939.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

[Johnny Byrne's Boots]

Turkey, a NATO member, controls access to the Black Sea and Russia hasn't invaded them. Yet.

[The Old Man of Storr]

ToMos, your sources....?

You know the rules. Pictures or it didn't happen.

Was listening to an interesting interview of Ray McGovern [ on Youtube ] this week [ who had 27 years experience of working for the CIA ] - he was saying that back in December just gone Putin and Biden had a telephone conversation [ there were 2 actually ] - during one of them Putin asked for reassurances that should Ukraine join NATO that the US would not install missiles there and to be fair to Biden he was willing to agree ...until his advisers stepped in and said ' No way ' . Now , I'm not saying that Russia would have been 100% happy with Ukraine joining NATO had they agreed not to have missiles installed on their territories but for the US not to give assurances I'm guessing they weren't going to take any chances and I don't think they had much choice other than to go in - I get the feeling that the US are fast tracking Sweden and Finland into the fold more out of frustration at what's going on in Ukraine - they'll install more missiles with the intention of neutralising Russia's nuclear deterrent - now don't quote me but I believe that Finland signed some neutrality deal with Russia in around 1948 so by joining NATO they'll be reneging on that .

Had to pop to Kyle [ Dan had a dental appointment ] so apologies for the delay in replying .


p.s. Had to smile at the language the BBC were using after saying that the Mariupol defenders ' Were leaving the Avostal steelworks ' , the Telegraph described them as being ' Rescued from Mariupol steelworks ' - what actually happened was they surrendered to the Russians and are being held in Russian held territory and they will possibly be exchanged for Russian prisoners of war -

Reuters now claiming that the Asov Battalion have surrendered too - that will be a huge blow to Ukrainian morale .

There's no shame in that after holding out for 82 days .

[The Old Man of Storr]

Not sure that is true when both countries have been clear they won’t allow permanent bases or missiles in their country.

Have they actually said that , MB , I didn't know that ?

[MB]

Have they actually said that , MB , I didn't know that ?

Certainly for Sweden as I believe that was the condition for the SDP to support the application (though struggling to find a link now).

[Up the Junction]

If true, this is dreadful.

[EvilC]

TOMOS, have you considered why Finland and Sweden might want to fast-track their applications to join NATO?

Russia’s attack on Ukraine is a breach of international law, so I would not sweat too much on Finland breaching a treaty.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

TOMOS, have you considered why Finland and Sweden might want to fast-track their applications to join NATO?

It's all moot if Turkey veto them. They're using Sweden's harbouring of PKK and the fella who led the aborted coup in 2016 and a reason for it. Be interesting to see what happens.

[The Old Man of Storr]

TOMOS, have you considered why Finland and Sweden might want to fast-track their applications to join NATO?

Evil C , have you considered why , when Russia [ who fought on the Allies' side during WW2 ] asked to join NATO they were told to get to the back of the queue yet when Sweden and Finland [ who supplied Nazi Germany with iron ore and men and who helped Germany with the invasion of Russia in 1941 ] apply they are fast tracked to the front of the queue , why is that do you think ? The Supreme Allied Commander Europe is an American General , Tod D. Wolters - the position of Supreme Allied Commander Europe has ALWAYS been held by a US Military Officer - they will never agree to Russia being part of NATO .

This from NATO's blurb -

'' It is often said that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization was founded in response to the threat posed by the Soviet Union. This is only partially true. In fact, the Alliance’s creation was part of a broader effort to serve three purposes: deterring Soviet expansionism, forbidding the revival of nationalist militarism in Europe through a strong North American presence on the continent, and encouraging European political integration. ''

The Soviet Union is no more yet Russia were refused entry but Ukraine who have seen a rise in several Far Right Groups recently some of which have been incorporated into their Military were actively encouraged to join - perhaps NATO forgot about No2 on their list - and as for ' Encouraging political integration ' , it seems the UK weren't listening .

Ah well .

[EvilC]

Evil C , have you considered why , when Russia [ who fought on the Allies' side during WW2 ] asked to join NATO they were told to get to the back of the queue yet when Sweden and Finland [ who supplied Nazi Germany with iron ore and men and who helped Germany with the invasion of Russia in 1941 ] apply they are fast tracked to the front of the queue , why is that do you think ? The Supreme Allied Commander Europe is an American General , Tod D. Wolters - the position of Supreme Allied Commander Europe has ALWAYS been held by a US Military Officer - they will never agree to Russia being part of NATO .

This from NATO's blurb -

'' It is often said that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization was founded in response to the threat posed by the Soviet Union. This is only partially true. In fact, the Alliance’s creation was part of a broader effort to serve three purposes: deterring Soviet expansionism, forbidding the revival of nationalist militarism in Europe through a strong North American presence on the continent, and encouraging European political integration. ''

The Soviet Union is no more yet Russia were refused entry but Ukraine who have seen a rise in several Far Right Groups recently some of which have been incorporated into their Military were actively encouraged to join - perhaps NATO forgot about No2 on their list - and as for ' Encouraging political integration ' , it seems the UK weren't listening .

Ah well .

No, I haven't thought that about that, because given current events it is such an absolutely ridiculous thing to contemplate that it is utterly pointless. However it isn't the gotcha that you think it is, it is you avoiding answering the question with a load of historical information which is of little relevance to the matters of today. Also I believe NATO requires members to have democratic control over the army, nobody could make a serious case for this is being so in Russia, which is one of several reasons. I'm not sure that encouraging political integration with a brutal dictatorship is going to achieve much.

Right now I suspect Ukraine needs every warm body going. Having ultra far right groups probably applies to every nation in NATO. We should probably boot the Americans out on that basis.

Please can you answer the question? You and I go through this not infrequently on this topic, where you avoid answering questions you aren't comfortable with.

I often wonder how odd people have to be that they detest the West so much that they end up contorting themselves into a position where they end up taking the side of some genuinely abhorrent political regimes that as I write this are waging war in a sovereign nation.

[delbert]

Russia only fought on the allied side in WW2 because they had to after Germany invaded them, the old enemy of my enemy friend thingy. They hardly came galloping to our aid..........

[Tenbury]

Russia have no problem whatsoever with Sweden [ who despite remaining ' neutral ' in WW2 supported Nazi Germany with various materials , iron ore etc , some even joined the Waffen SS ] and Finland [ who started off by supporting Nazi Germany's war on Russia before changing sides and supporting the Allies ] joining NATO - what they object to is the US placing missiles within these countries .

Bit disingenuous, Mate. You know as well as I do that there wereWaffenSS groups from a range of nationalities including, of course the UK ( ). More to the point, themajority of the population in both Sweden and Finland want to join NATO, hardly surprising given recent events, so if democracy is a good thing...

[MB]

Evil C , have you considered why , when Russia [ who fought on the Allies' side during WW2 ] asked to join NATO they were told to get to the back of the queue yet when Sweden and Finland [ who supplied Nazi Germany with iron ore and men and who helped Germany with the invasion of Russia in 1941 ]

And what happened in 1939 TOMOS? You know when the Russians entered into a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany, carved up Eastern Europe (including Finland btw which Russia then invaded in November 1939.) and supplied a **** ton of war resources to Nazi Germany? I seem to remember the last trains of coal were rumbling across the border as the Germans went the other way!

The war didn't start when Russia got invaded and if you are going to go that far back in history then make sure you do it right

[The Old Man of Storr]

I often wonder how odd people have to be that they detest the West so much that they end up contorting themselves into a position where they end up taking the side of some genuinely abhorrent political regimes that as I write this are waging war in a sovereign nation.

Either you are blind to American foreign policy or you're a Russophobe , which is it ?

Does the Pope hate the West , does American Professor and West Point Graduate , John Mearsheimer hate the West , does the Pink Palermo hate the West ? I don't hate the West and I'm pretty sure none of the others don't either [ though obviously I can't speak for The Pope ] .

It's American aggression I don't like - they've surrounded both China and Russia with weapons of mass destruction and get involved with most wars going including this one -

The US and the UK waged war on a sovereign nation , it's nothing new .

[EvilC]

Either you are blind to American foreign policy or you're a Russophobe , which is it ?

Does the Pope hate the West , does American Professor and West Point Graduate , John Mearsheimer hate the West , does the Pink Palermo hate the West ? I don't hate the West and I'm pretty sure none of the others don't either [ though obviously I can't speak for The Pope ] .

It's American aggression I don't like - they've surrounded both China and Russia with weapons of mass destruction and get involved with most wars going including this one -

The US and the UK waged war on a sovereign nation , it's nothing new .

I'm not answering a single question until you answer mine.

You don't like American aggression. This is fine. Yet you are curiously quiet on Russian aggression.

[MB]

Either you are blind to American foreign policy or you're a Russophobe , which is it ?

Does the Pope hate the West , does American Professor and West Point Graduate , John Mearsheimer hate the West , does the Pink Palermo hate the West ? I don't hate the West and I'm pretty sure none of the others don't either [ though obviously I can't speak for The Pope ] .

It's American aggression I don't like - they've surrounded both China and Russia with weapons of mass destruction and get involved with most wars going including this one -

The US and the UK waged war on a sovereign nation , it's nothing new .

So Russia was sitting their peacefully post the second World War? It didn't invade any sovereign nations and insert puppet governments?

China definitely wasn't funnelling arms, troops and pilots into Korea in the 1950s?

The US and UK are not angels in this, but no one is. We deal in shades of grey.