Watford 1-4 West Ham Utd (28/12/21)

Relive every moment of every first team game since the beginning of the 2005/06 season. Our archive of matchday threads originally posted in the General Discussion Forum.

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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by fmgod »

Watford 'Ammer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:26 pm I know football fans are fickle.

I know football fans have short memories.



But for any West Ham fan to even contemplate, for a split second, questioning the contribution or role of Declan Rice.
?

Wow.
Because it is far more than putting 11 good players on a pitch, Rice is a great player but like any player he has strengths and weaknesses, he isn't Messi, the team has to be the main thing not Rice, Bowen or anyone.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Morocco Mole »

I’m with Watford.

Tailoring our entire team to suit Soucek rather than Rice is another kind of mentalism.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Turtlecharityracer »

Watford 'Ammer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:26 pm I know football fans are fickle.

I know football fans have short memories.



But for any West Ham fan to even contemplate, for a split second, questioning the contribution or role of Declan Rice.
?

Wow.
I think its a defence mechanism from fans.
Most are pretty convinced Rice will leave at the end of the season so they are trying to convince themselves that we will be better off without him.
God they are in for a shock.

Bottom 6 without Rice.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by NWhammer »

Morocco Mole wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:48 pm I’m with Watford.

Tailoring our entire team to suit Soucek rather than Rice is another kind of mentalism.
Soucek is better than Rice going forward. Sure Rice can drive with the ball but Soucek has more of an attacking instinct.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Turtlecharityracer »

NWhammer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:02 pm Soucek is better than Rice going forward. Sure Rice can drive with the ball but Soucek has more of an attacking instinct.
Stats contradict that point and also contradict the belief that Soucek is playing more defensive than Rice.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

NWhammer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:02 pm Soucek is better than Rice going forward. Sure Rice can drive with the ball but Soucek has more of an attacking instinct.
Soucek is not better than Rice going forward. That is just mental.
He is very good at getting forward without the ball and getting on the end of crosses or through balls. His finishing is pretty reliable and his stamina is insane.
However, going forward with the ball he is pretty limited
If you asked Declan Rice to play the Soucek role he would be pretty good at it - albeit wouldn't win so many headers in the opposition box
If you asked Declan Rice to play as a number 10 he would be pretty good at it as well
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by rciron »

Doc H Ball wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:11 pm Strewth Watford were crap. Pleased we swerved King.

I didn’t think it was a foul for our disallowed goal nor a penalty in real time. Getting increasingly fed up with VAR spoiling the live experience.

Highlight for me was Vlasic goal and seeing Noble recover from a dodgy start to sew things together.

A back 4 and 2 holding CMs? My memory ain’t great but don’t think Moyes played that way for ages. I’ve always liked that shape and despite not exactly looking sound, at least it’s an option with Coufal and Johnson.

Watford and Norwich undoubtedly doomed, just hope Saudi FC join them.
:pray: cheers doc
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Samba »

Turtlecharityracer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:31 amI think only the most ardent claret and blue spectacles wearer would deny Souckek and Coufal signings are turning into a bit of a nightmare. Both first choice by default as no other options and both really poor.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by fmgod »

Soucek has a goal in every 4.3 games which is pretty good going for a cm/dm of a non-top team, Rice scores a goal every 24.6 games, it goes a bit against logic but Soucek like Dawson is an absolute weapon going forward
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Believer »

Turtlecharityracer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:54 pm

Bottom 6 without Rice.
I don’t think he will leave this season. In fact I don’t think he will leave next season. Nobody knows what the next 6 months will bring. If and it is an if, we were to win the Europa, we would be straight in to the CL with no qualifiers required.
If we sign Lingard and 1 or 2 others and then welcome back Zouma and Cresswell, we will be chasing top 5 or 6 and possibly a FA Cup run.

We are a good team, but we are severely stretched without our best defenders. We can muddle on with only Antonio even if he is injured, however, taking away 3 of our first pick 4 defenders will weaken any team - look at Liverpool last season and Leicester this season.

Rice isn’t daft. He probably knows that trophy wins won’t be regular events however he also knows we gave top 4 a run last season and he is most probably going to take the armband for England as and when Kane is finished. All of this happened at the club who gave him a chance.

We know his worth, the manager knows his worth and I’m quite sure Dec knows his worth.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by NWhammer »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:17 pm Soucek is not better than Rice going forward. That is just mental.
He is very good at getting forward without the ball and getting on the end of crosses or through balls. His finishing is pretty reliable and his stamina is insane.
However, going forward with the ball he is pretty limited
If you asked Declan Rice to play the Soucek role he would be pretty good at it - albeit wouldn't win so many headers in the opposition box
If you asked Declan Rice to play as a number 10 he would be pretty good at it as well
Well he is and the goal involvements over the last two seasons prove that. He also gives us more of a presence in the box than Rice and things happen as a result of that.

Declan is an unbelievable player but let's not try and change him from what he excells at, that's the mental bit.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by IronZ-79 »

Rice is one the best CMs in the league.

Soucek is also a decent CM.

Together they offer a good presence in midfield. Soucek has that ability to pop up in the box and score goals. Rice hasn't quite got that. But offers a lot more in terms of driving forward carrying the ball.

Losing Rice would be a massive hole to fill. Don't think anyone disputes that. Beating Watford 4-1 has taken discussions to another level!!! Another agenda perhaps....
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Albie Beck »

IronZ-79 wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:01 am Rice is one the best CMs in the league.

Soucek is also a decent CM.

Together they offer a good presence in midfield. Soucek has that ability to pop up in the box and score goals. Rice hasn't quite got that. But offers a lot more in terms of driving forward carrying the ball.

Losing Rice would be a massive hole to fill. Don't think anyone disputes that. Beating Watford 4-1 has taken discussions to another level!!! Another agenda perhaps....
Good summary. But we really aren't into Gerrard/Lampard territory here...
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Sticky »

I think we should have a monthly competition called 'Turtles Crowning Glory' - bit like 'Goal of the Month' - but we vote on the finest selection of his absolute nonsense and the winner gets to stay in a caravan and impersonate Marco Boogers for 48 hrs.

**** in a steel bucket, whilst a single drop of rain plays Chinese torture as you slowly descend into madness. The whole 9 yards.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by WCpete »

Morocco Mole wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:48 pm I’m with Watford.

Tailoring our entire team to suit Soucek rather than Rice is another kind of mentalism.
I agree. And it's not like Soucek had been denied opportunities on the front foot. He's just missed them. He could still have been on the same goal tally as last season at this point if he had put a few away. Opportunities haven't gone wanting. He's mostly just flubbed his chances.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by sendô »

Morocco Mole wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:48 pm I’m with Watford.

Tailoring our entire team to suit Soucek rather than Rice is another kind of mentalism.
Noone has said to “tailor our entire team to suit Soucek rather than Rice”, people have merely questioned wgether It’d suit the team as a whole better to have Soucek charging forward into space more than Rice charging forwards with the ball.

It’s a reasonable query given a) how effective Soucek was at this last season, b) that we’ve been a bit hit and miss in attack of late and c) that Rice makes good runs but is low on goals and assists.

In fact I find it odd how quickly some posters get indignant at any suggestion that Rice isn’t the “perfect player”. He’s 22.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Samba »

Samba wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:55 am If I had a table like Paddy O'Hammer, I'd be getting under it..
I never doubted us..
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Bilic'sLimp »

Let's get the best from both our two excellent central midfielder players.

I feel like their partnership can be improved to include more goals. Soucek has a better goal scoring record but this season he has struggled. Let's think of ways to improve that. Rice has a good driving run but fails to get a goal or assist most of the time. Looks like work on the training ground is needed.

With our two first choice centre backs out perhaps Rice should sit more to protect them.

We're so lucky to have these players.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Aceface »

Nice to be able to compliment Noble on the playing side for a change instead of something to do with his character or his actions off the pitch. Definitely opponents that suited him but he was very good.
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Re: ⚽ Watford v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Diogenes »

sendô wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:09 am Noone has said to “tailor our entire team to suit Soucek rather than Rice”, people have merely questioned wgether It’d suit the team as a whole better to have Soucek charging forward into space more than Rice charging forwards with the ball.

It’s a reasonable query given a) how effective Soucek was at this last season, b) that we’ve been a bit hit and miss in attack of late and c) that Rice makes good runs but is low on goals and assists.

In fact I find it odd how quickly some posters get indignant at any suggestion that Rice isn’t the “perfect player”. He’s 22.
:newthumb:
Also, it isn't just a Rice/Soucek thing. I agree that Rice is terrific, our best player, should be England Captain, hope he stays forever etc. etc. Speaking personally though, I have just noticed that he seems to have become more and more dominant in our matches with nearly everything involving him, including free kicks etc. My questioning is, is that 'dominance' potentially at the expense of other players potential contribution and team coherence as a whole? Is the 'teams' development on a different arc to Rice (i.e. do the team tactics need to change to accommodate the 'new Rice' or vice versa)? Just questions, no idea of the answer just a nagging doubt.
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