Europa Conference League 22-23

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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by -DL- »

4th place instead of a trophy? f*** me, we're turning in to Arsenal.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by smuts »

I think I'd take the League Cup over 4th...
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by Albie Beck »

Kermit wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:49 pm

Whatever the reason for the creation of the "elite" I still have no problem with more clubs being given the opportunity of competing in a European competition. As I said previously clubs of West Ham's stature would never get a sniff of Europe if there was no Europa or Conference league competitions.
I don't disagree with that at all. What I was objecting to is the devaluation of what we had achieved in the past. We were only the second English club to win a major European trophy. Before Man U, before Liverpool, before Chelsea and iirc about 20 years before Arsenal! And I believe that, like us, Arsenal and Man C have only ever won the CWC - once.

I don't like our history being dismissed.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by Wembley1966 »

mushy wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:22 am You mean no chance as against hardly any chance.
I think you are whistling in the dark, the current setup is so geared towards the top clubs that even if we had got 4th spot we still would have only got 4% of the money that Chelsea will get for doing exactly the same thing.
European prize money for 2021/22:
The prize money for progressing and winning matches is the same regardless of club coefficient.

Image

What is different is the coefficient payment that was introduced in 2018/19, based on performances in UEFA tournaments over the past 10 years, including bonus points for winning UEFA tournaments, so it benefits the traditional big clubs that have previously done well in Europe. The Champions League €600m UEFA coefficient pot is divided into shares worth €1.137m, so the highest ranked club gets €36.38m, while the lowest gets €1.137m. In the Europa League payments range from €4.2m down to €132k, while the Europa Conference goes from €1.4m to €45k.

Chelsea as the 4th ranked club (behind Bayern, Liverpool and Man City), would have got an additional €32.97m coefficient payment. All the Clubs that participated (from Group stage) had coefficients above ours so we would have got just €1.137m.

So just on the coefficient payment means that we would have got just 3.45% of Chelsea's amount.

However you said that if we had got 4th spot - so if you include the prize money then just qualifying by getting to 4th spot (without winning any matches) then we would have got €15.64+€1.137 which is 34.5% of Chelsea's equivalent amount. Winning every single match including the final we would have got 73% of Chelsea's comparative amount.

It still stinks and just helps the elite get further ahead.

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:06 pm I read Tottenham earned more from being knocked out of the conference league than we did from the Europa League. May have changed as we went to the Semi-Final but they were getting more per match for sure.
You'll see the prize money per match above - not much more for the Europa than the Conference. Tottenham as the highest ranked club in the Conference got €1,424,000 coefficient money and we were 25th ranked in the Europa and got €1,056,000. In addition Tottenham got €5.8m prize money and we got €14.3m prize money.

https://www.football-coefficient.eu/money/
Last edited by Wembley1966 on Thu May 26, 2022 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

Regardless, this competition serves as a way to boost our co-efficient, silly to throw that away.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by Wembley1966 »

^^^ It certainly does. Same number of points for winning or drawing matches. Slightly more bonus points for Champions and Europa are available. Maximum points available per club for Champions League (38); Europa (34) and Conference (30).
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by mushy »

Yodi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:11 am Are you claiming if we qualified for the champions league we would only get 4% of the income that Chelsea get for being in the competition?

Please explain
It's in here somewhere -:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... dApp_Other
Apologies if I read it wrong.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by mushy »

Wembley1966 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:50 pm

However you said that if we had got 4th spot - so if you include the prize money then just qualifying by getting to 4th spot (without winning any matches) then we would have got €15.64+€1.137 which is 34.5% of Chelsea's equivalent amount. Winning every single match including the final we would have got 73% of Chelsea's comparative amount.

It still stinks and just helps the elite get further ahead.




You'll see the prize money per match above - not much more for the Europa than the Conference. Tottenham as the highest ranked club in the Conference got €1,424,000 coefficient money and we were 25th ranked in the Europa and got €1,056,000. In addition Tottenham got €5.8m prize money and we got €14.3m prize money.

https://www.football-coefficient.eu/money/
You are correct I did say 4th spot, as you have pointed out quite rightly I should have said Chumps League qualification through the Europa.
Even the getting 4th spot the difference in amounts is scandalous.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by bubbles1966 »

You can see who got what from the coefficient set up under the 'prize money' tab here.

https://www.football-coefficient.eu/money/

The highest ranked ECL team gets more from this revenue stream than the lowest rank CL team - and we would probably be the lowest, I think. Our coefficient is 21 , I think. That's lower than Sheriff Tiraspol who were the bottom ranked team in the CL.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by Kermit »

Albie Beck wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:09 pm I don't disagree with that at all. What I was objecting to is the devaluation of what we had achieved in the past. We were only the second English club to win a major European trophy. Before Man U, before Liverpool, before Chelsea and iirc about 20 years before Arsenal! And I believe that, like us, Arsenal and Man C have only ever won the CWC - once.

I don't like our history being dismissed.
It's not being dismissed though is it ? When we won the ECWC it was only one of two European competitions (if you exclude the Fairs Cup which wasn't actually a club competition when it started out) and thus carried with it a degree of prestige.

But when we next participated in the competition, reaching the final, it had become the poor relation of European competitions, behind the European Cup and the UEFA cup. However it was still a competition which was worth winning until it eventually died the death because national cup winners were usually in either the European Cup or UEFA cup.

Even our own Mickey Mouse cup is a trophy worth winning, as any trophy is. However in terms of prestige it carries less kudos than the other domestic competitions just as the conference carries less prestige than it's bigger brothers.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

Wembley1966 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:50 pm European prize money for 2021/22:
The prize money for progressing and winning matches is the same regardless of club coefficient.

Image

What is different is the coefficient payment that was introduced in 2018/19, based on performances in UEFA tournaments over the past 10 years, including bonus points for winning UEFA tournaments, so it benefits the traditional big clubs that have previously done well in Europe. The Champions League €600m UEFA coefficient pot is divided into shares worth €1.137m, so the highest ranked club gets €36.38m, while the lowest gets €1.137m. In the Europa League payments range from €4.2m down to €132k, while the Europa Conference goes from €1.4m to €45k.

Chelsea as the 4th ranked club (behind Bayern, Liverpool and Man City), would have got an additional €32.97m coefficient payment. All the Clubs that participated (from Group stage) had coefficients above ours so we would have got just €1.137m.

So just on the coefficient payment means that we would have got just 3.45% of Chelsea's amount.

However you said that if we had got 4th spot - so if you include the prize money then just qualifying by getting to 4th spot (without winning any matches) then we would have got €15.64+€1.137 which is 34.5% of Chelsea's equivalent amount. Winning every single match including the final we would have got 73% of Chelsea's comparative amount.

It still stinks and just helps the elite get further ahead.




You'll see the prize money per match above - not much more for the Europa than the Conference. Tottenham as the highest ranked club in the Conference got €1,424,000 coefficient money and we were 25th ranked in the Europa and got €1,056,000. In addition Tottenham got €5.8m prize money and we got €14.3m prize money.

https://www.football-coefficient.eu/money/
I love this kind of analysis!

Silly question, but i am assuming clubs don't get the co-efficient payment if they don't qualify for Europe?
For example, Arsenal would not have go any money this season just for having a high co-efficient?

EDIT: I have just seen Bubbles link so that answers my question and that they wouldn't have got any
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by roblo »

Sorry if it's been answered before, but do we know (or based on last season's play off, have a decent guess) if we'll be at home in the first leg?
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by Wembley1966 »

^^^ There's 34 teams on our play-off path round with the top 15 teams seeded based on club coefficient, plus the 2 teams that drop down from the Europa are seeded. The draw works by placing the half of the teams in that round that are seeded in one bowl and the non-seeded teams in another bowl. Then one ball from each pot is picked and placed in another bowl to determine who plays at home in the first leg. Whichever of the 2 balls in there that are then picked out first will be at home for the first leg of the tie.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by The Straw »

Probably a whole other thread in itself but I was wondering about 'the luck of the draw'. Or sometimes even the lottery of penalties.

You see Rangers get their QF and SF 2nd legs at home. And against Braga and Leipzig at that. That's a decent little bit of fortune (although Leipzig are obviously a quality outfit, if a little wet behind the ears as a club and proper support). When you look at their record away from Ibrox throughout the whole competition I think they only won one game. When you think back to our Sevilla home tie, it was electric... totally different to when we played the QF and SF's at home. We'll never know, but i'm sure it would have helped. And that's something we had no control over, it was just unlucky.

The media often bang on about Anfield on those 'electric european nights', but they're always 2nd legs aren't they? When the kop supposedly sucks the ball into the goal.

With Liverpool, and I haven't checked the facts to back this up (and i'm sure someone will prove this theory wrong), but it feels like they draw a lot of finals and then win on penalties. And when they do win a cup, the route sometimes looks very favourable.

This year our respective knockout games have been:

Seville, Lyon, Frankfurt
vs
Inter, Benfica, Villareal

It doesn't feel that different in quality to me.

Don't get me wrong, you have to make your own luck sometimes. And you need a bit on the pitch too. But it helps when West Ham draw Man Utd, Man City and Spurs in consecutive rounds of the League Cup, knocking two of them out, so you only have to draw with Chelsea in the final and then luck out on pens.

The more a type the more I realise it sounds like sour grapes. Maybe it is. But give me the easiest possible draw every single round please. If you get knocked out by a minnow then it's your own fault and you deserve nothing. But if you can get to a final by playing weaker teams then yes please.

What say you? Am I talking b*llocks? I have been accused of it many, many times :crylol:
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by carnage »

Anyone who has seen the Roma parade and the joy on Jose’s face still think this is a 2 Bob cup competition?
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by funky chicken »

A bigger club and arguably better team won the Europa Conference than the winners of the Europa League. Roma will probably go quite far in the Europa League next season too.

Villarreal, the winners of the Europa League 2 seasons ago and last season’s Champions League semi finalists will be in the Europa Conference next season.

More fool anyone who does turn their noses up to this competition.

Bring on the challenge next season. I am looking forward to it!
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by e17 »

carnage wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:18 am Anyone who has seen the Roma parade and the joy on Jose’s face still think this is a 2 Bob cup competition?
You won’t get an answer mate, too busy dealing with their envy of Spurs and their huge street parade go past Ikea Edmonton on their open top bus journey for finishing 4th…

I jest.

But that lot are a good yardstick - and I can confirm that a lot of that lots STH’s have had a whinge at how much they wished Jose had given them an evening like Roma.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by pbenjy »

e17 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:45 am
But that lot are a good yardstick - and I can confirm that a lot of that lots STH’s have had a whinge at how much they wished Jose had given them an evening like Roma.
If Spurs had bothered fielding a team when they were actually still in the competition, then they might have been playing Roma in the final.

West Ham may not be perfect, but I am sure we will actually manage to fulfil our fixtures when we are in it next year,
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by bubbles1966 »

carnage wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:18 am Anyone who has seen the Roma parade and the joy on Jose’s face still think this is a 2 Bob cup competition?
If I've understood the Serie A rankings properly - Roma would not have qualified for the Europa League next season if they hadn't won this competition. They finished 6th in Serie A, which is a Conference League place.

It's effectively 'promoted' them in european competition unless they got a Coppa Italia cup winners' slot by default.
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Re: Europa Conference League 22-23

Post by bubbles1966 »

The Straw wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 1:17 am Probably a whole other thread in itself but I was wondering about 'the luck of the draw'. Or sometimes even the lottery of penalties.

You see Rangers get their QF and SF 2nd legs at home. And against Braga and Leipzig at that. That's a decent little bit of fortune (although Leipzig are obviously a quality outfit, if a little wet behind the ears as a club and proper support). When you look at their record away from Ibrox throughout the whole competition I think they only won one game. When you think back to our Sevilla home tie, it was electric... totally different to when we played the QF and SF's at home. We'll never know, but i'm sure it would have helped. And that's something we had no control over, it was just unlucky.

The media often bang on about Anfield on those 'electric european nights', but they're always 2nd legs aren't they? When the kop supposedly sucks the ball into the goal.

With Liverpool, and I haven't checked the facts to back this up (and i'm sure someone will prove this theory wrong), but it feels like they draw a lot of finals and then win on penalties. And when they do win a cup, the route sometimes looks very favourable.

This year our respective knockout games have been:

Seville, Lyon, Frankfurt
vs
Inter, Benfica, Villareal

It doesn't feel that different in quality to me.

Don't get me wrong, you have to make your own luck sometimes. And you need a bit on the pitch too. But it helps when West Ham draw Man Utd, Man City and Spurs in consecutive rounds of the League Cup, knocking two of them out, so you only have to draw with Chelsea in the final and then luck out on pens.

The more a type the more I realise it sounds like sour grapes. Maybe it is. But give me the easiest possible draw every single round please. If you get knocked out by a minnow then it's your own fault and you deserve nothing. But if you can get to a final by playing weaker teams then yes please.

What say you? Am I talking b*llocks? I have been accused of it many, many times :crylol:
I think that's a very fair observation.

It is why winning genuine leagues is harder than cups - you can't duck the difficult opponents.

Liverpool did not win a single league game against top 4 opposition this season. The all-conquering narrative starts to look a bit iffy against that backdrop, as does winning every cup final on penalties.

Truly great teams don't win that way so frequently. They crush opponents. They play them off the park.

That's why some of the supposedly great English teams -I include Man U in 1999 in this - have not been great.

It also shows the way to the top 4 in our league.

36 points are available against the bottom six. Any club that is absolutely ruthless against those teams only needs another 34 points from 26 games to be on the cusp of CL.

Build a team of super-efficient flat track bullies and you're almost there.
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