👋 Farewell, Gianluca Scamacca

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Garry
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by Garry »

No that's right I know they bloody didn't qualify . But Italy had 2 friendlys lined up and he was in the squad but he got injured and as now left the Italian squad .
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fjthegrey
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by fjthegrey »

I think the blokes got enough on his plate learning how to play up front in a new league. Trying to get him to learn a new position, one which he's never played as a professional, in a new league is going to be a steep uphill task.
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NedN
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by NedN »

jastons wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:09 am Not saying you are wrong but who does Cornet play instead of?

Moyes won't drop Bowen or Soucek and Benny has been one of our best players.
I personally think that ultimately the player to drop is Soucek but it will never happen. Paqueta deeper and Benrahma, Bowen, and Cornet fluidly switching between being advanced centrally, acting as a second striker or playing on the wing throughout the game.

Won’t ever happen and could expose us defensively, but I like to hope once Zouma and Aguerd are fit and we can play a higher line, thus reducing space in the midfield, we could try something like this. Obviously Paqueta needs to further adjust to the league and Cornet has to come back strong before we could try this.
Take It to the Limit
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by Take It to the Limit »

NedN wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:40 pm I personally think that ultimately the player to drop is Soucek but it will never happen. Paqueta deeper and Benrahma, Bowen, and Cornet fluidly switching between being advanced centrally, acting as a second striker or playing on the wing throughout the game.

Won’t ever happen and could expose us defensively, but I like to hope once Zouma and Aguerd are fit and we can play a higher line, thus reducing space in the midfield, we could try something like this. Obviously Paqueta needs to further adjust to the league and Cornet has to come back strong before we could try this.
Up front, it has to be Bowen imo, who gets dropped. Play Benni on the right and Cornet on the left.
Paqueta should be playing just behind those and Scamacca.
Zouma has peaked (again imo) so I do feel central defence is going to be an issue.
Feels strangely weird that Cresswell seems to now be one of our least criticised players. Must seem like Christmas for him 😂
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Burnley Hammer
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by Burnley Hammer »

NedN wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:40 pm I personally think that ultimately the player to drop is Soucek but it will never happen. Paqueta deeper and Benrahma, Bowen, and Cornet fluidly switching between being advanced centrally, acting as a second striker or playing on the wing throughout the game.

Won’t ever happen and could expose us defensively, but I like to hope once Zouma and Aguerd are fit and we can play a higher line, thus reducing space in the midfield, we could try something like this. Obviously Paqueta needs to further adjust to the league and Cornet has to come back strong before we could try this.
Problem with that is you're replacing a defensively solid number 10 who's making quite a big contribution in terms of pressing, tackling, heading, etc with a forward player who isn't. That really shouldn't be an issue but sadly we seem to be have a weak spot centrally at the moment and that move wouldn't really help. A higher line may help but I'm not sure why you think Zouma is suitable to play in a high line. He's no quicker than Dawson.

The space in the midfield is there in the first place because we vacate it. Of our two defensive midfielders, one already spends much of his time out over on the left, and the other out over on the right. We're just missing the guy that stays central in a defensive position. I think 4-3-3 is the answer. Rice is pretty much already playing as that left midfield box-to-box player, covering the left-back as well as helping to progress the attack. Soucek is already covering the right-back but not so good at moving the ball forward and building up the attack. So replace him with Paqueta/Fornals and move Soucek/Downes to a central, purely defensive position. One that requires discipline and holding your position. Kind of like the man that mops up. That doesn't mean he can't come forward for set-pieces, but if he does so then there should be an understanding that one of the other midfielders temporarily replaces him in that central defensive role.

Then move Scamacca into a deeper position, more like a proper number 10 (which wouldn't be much of a change as he frequently ends up dropping back into that spot anyway). Then we move the wingers higher up the pitch and narrower so they're more like wide forwards than traditional wingers. Players that are ready to make runs ahead of Scamacca when he receives the ball so he actually has players closer that he can link up with. Pick two from Bowen, Antonio, Benrahma, Cornet.

I'm struggling to let this idea go (as some may have noticed) - I think its a system geared up to get the best out of Scamacca, Bowen, Cornet, and Antonio - and also a system that helps reduce the space we're leaving in the centre of the pitch. Most importantly I think it's a system that much better fits a counter attack approach.
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by 1895Hammer »

Like that 433 system, but not sure either Soucek or Downes are good enough centrally for a side with European ambition. I think we need a quality cdm with real passing ability there, Rice could do it, but then you’d need the wide midfield role filling. Like you I’m concerned about Zouma, always think his knee looks a tackle away from breakdown, and he isn’t quick, we really need another strong pacy cb, and a quick left back, as well as Cresswell is playing he’d be exposed by a high line defence. Totally agree we need our “ wingers” to get a lot closer to Scamacca to make him effective, I suspect they see Cornet doing that. So I think we really need a cb, cdm and lb, plus ideally another fast mobile striker, that’s probably best part of another £100m so let’s hope Kretinsky is in a generous mood……
Last edited by Up the Junction on Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Large quote removed.
hammerman11
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by hammerman11 »

Fabianski
New RB zouma augerd cresswell/new LB
Downes
Rice paqueta
Scamacca
Bowen Cornet

Subs Areola Johnson ogbonna kehrer Emerson fornals soucek benrahma Antonio

We do need new fullbacks though !
YorksHammer
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by YorksHammer »

1895Hammer wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:53 am Like that 433 system, but not sure either Soucek or Downes are good enough centrally for a side with European ambition.
I think right now we should worry more about having an avoiding relegation ambition than Europe.

Scamacca's doing just fine, by the way. He's a bit unfortunate that over the past couple of games we've had a massive slump in performance and he's hardly got the ball in a goalscoring position. I think the only strong chance is the header he had at the weekend from a Bowen corner, and even that has a low xG apparently.
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by Hamburger »

Burnley, I think the players in this team are a natural for 4-3-3 and I'm with you all the way. We rely on a wing back system when we really don't have any good ones. Has Moyes ever deployed an attacking midfield? It sometimes feels as if we have 7 defenders and 3 attackers who must track back to help defend!?!
1895Hammer
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by 1895Hammer »

YorksHammer wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:04 am I think right now we should worry more about having an avoiding relegation ambition than Europe.

Scamacca's doing just fine, by the way. He's a bit unfortunate that over the past couple of games we've had a massive slump in performance and he's hardly got the ball in a goalscoring position. I think the only strong chance is the header he had at the weekend from a Bowen corner, and even that has a low xG apparently.
Right now you’re bang on Yorks, another couple of defeats after Xmas and it’s a grim season, but don’t tell me that squad, managed to it’s potential, shouldn’t have European ambition, it’s stronger than the one that qualified for the last 2 years!
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by hammerman11 »

we have the players but do we have the tactics and ability to change from moyes. more of the same will see a grim season ahead.
its not even halfway in the PL so it can be turned around but we need to change to do so.
not convinced moyes will get the best out of the players we have.
a new RB in january; AWB will be ideal for 10m 24 english and a step up defensively from coufal and johnson. coufal going will mean BJ and AWB can share the RB spot. lets defend properly and let our attackers shake off the shackles
new CB needed if dawson goes which looks likely.

scamacca needs to be the centre point of our attacks linking the AMs and strikers.

fabianski
AWB zouma augerd cresswell
rice downes paqueta
bowen scamacca benrahma

subs areola johnson kehrer emerson lanzini soucek antonio fornals cornet

we have the players do we have the manager ??????????
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MB
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by MB »

433 would put significant pressure on the fullbacks, especially with only one holding player which I think is why we’ve rarely seen Moyes deploy it.

If we want a front three (which Scamacca really needs imo) then it needs to be a 343 or 523… which we don’t have the wingbacks for (against better teams)!

It all just feels a bit unfinished leaving us trying to put a square peg in a round hole (again).
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by 1895Hammer »

MB wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:25 am 433 would put significant pressure on the fullbacks, especially with only one holding player which I think is why we’ve rarely seen Moyes deploy it.

If we want a front three (which Scamacca really needs imo) then it needs to be a 343 or 523… which we don’t have the wingbacks for (against better teams)!

It all just feels a bit unfinished leaving us trying to put a square peg in a round hole (again).
However we cut this it inevitably comes back to inadequate full/ wing backs. Cresswell is still a good player on the ball but ever more physically limited, Emerson appears a waste of money, is Kehrer a full back, Johnson can’t pass and Coufal seems to have peaked and gone backwards. Most frustratingly we won’t try Ashby and as a result will lose him. Wan Bissaka is one dimensional, but a good defender, I’d rather we went for Maehle who is quick, can play, and does a job right or left side. Realistically we need 2 top quality full backs to release the potential in the rest of the squad.
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Bubbles Fortuna
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

1895Hammer wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:59 am Right now you’re bang on Yorks, another couple of defeats after Xmas and it’s a grim season, but don’t tell me that squad, managed to it’s potential, shouldn’t have European ambition, it’s stronger than the one that qualified for the last 2 years!
Though Tottenham and Arsenal are also stronger than 2 years ago, and so are Newcastle.

That's three of the teams that finished below us when we were 6th.

It's not like the rest of the league stood still.
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Albie Beck
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by Albie Beck »

Burnley Hammer wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:26 am Then move Scamacca into a deeper position, more like a proper number 10 (which wouldn't be much of a change as he frequently ends up dropping back into that spot anyway). Then we move the wingers higher up the pitch and narrower so they're more like wide forwards than traditional wingers. Players that are ready to make runs ahead of Scamacca when he receives the ball so he actually has players closer that he can link up with. Pick two from Bowen, Antonio, Benrahma, Cornet.
I don't think you need to drop Scamacca deeper. But you are right insofar as the attackers need to get closer to him, and run beyond him. He can hold it up, but is far better at the quick lay-off, backheel or through-ball which quick runners should be latching on to.

I'm still convinced our problem is more the players being individually and collectively out of form and this is bogging down this process. Once they can get back in form it will click.
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by 1895Hammer »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:31 pm Though Tottenham and Arsenal are also stronger than 2 years ago, and so are Newcastle.

That's three of the teams that finished below us when we were 6th.

It's not like the rest of the league stood still.
Every team tries to strengthen, get that, but looking at who we brought in I think we are still capable of competing for Europa League / Conference places, and as I’ve said before on here with UEFA increasing the numbers in those competitions the strength of the PL probably means 8 English teams in Europe most years, surely we should see ourselves in that mix ?
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by YorksHammer »

MB wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:25 am 433 would put significant pressure on the fullbacks, especially with only one holding player which I think is why we’ve rarely seen Moyes deploy it.

If we want a front three (which Scamacca really needs imo) then it needs to be a 343 or 523… which we don’t have the wingbacks for (against better teams)!

It all just feels a bit unfinished leaving us trying to put a square peg in a round hole (again).
I think it works, but I think it needs a more disciplined holding player than either Rice or Soucek plays as.

Early on when Pellegrini started playing him as a DM, Rice was that disciplined holder behind a couple of others (memory serves that his first start under Pellegrini against Liverpool was behind Wilshere and Noble, for example, with Fredericks and Masuaku as our fullbacks. He did the same in the win against Everton). Repeating that with, say, Downes behind Rice and Paqueta would be the way to go, because having that one disciplined holder makes the 4-3-3 become a 3-4-3 when we attack - the fullbacks push up, the disciplined holder drops between the centre backs. It can easily become a five in defence if the other team is breaking, it's then up to others to press higher up the pitch and give the defence opportunity to come back. That dropping in is what Rice was great at in the early days, rarely got into the attacking third but was so good as a defensive presence and pushing the centre backs wider to cover their fullbacks.

Can we do that with Downes? He seems to have the basics to do it.
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by hammerman11 »

Downes Rice paqueta
Benrahma scamacca Cornet

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Centre Half
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

Post by Centre Half »

I said in the England game thread how similar the performance yesterday was to watching West Ham this season.

Watching Kane isolated and having no impact on the game reminded me of Scamacca in recent weeks.

I think any striker would struggle playing in the way we’ve done recently and the way that England played yesterday; slow, tedious possession at a snails pace with no cutting edge.

The point is I think Scamacca has all the ability to succeed but the setup is hurting him and rendering him impotent at the moment.

I actually think he has some similarities to Kane in that they are both clever footballers with ability and vision to link the play.

The trouble is Kane has two attackers buzzing around him for Spurs, we’ve got Bowen running into blind alleys.
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Re: ✍ Gianluca Scamacca

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