Nottingham Forest 1-0 West Ham Utd (14/8/22)

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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

https://www.kumb.com/article.php?id=44377

you can say what you like about xG's, progressive passes etc. etc. and I do not profess to understand them, but Jack's analysis using them pretty much confirms what me and loads and loads and loads of people who were watching saw on Sunday.

imvho that is
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Up the Junction »

I see the footballing luddites (fluddites?) are out in force!

While the naked eye continues to be a good indicator of specific strengths and weaknesses, of course stats/analytics have a place - and play a key role - in the modern game.
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

However did the likes of Ferguson, Robson, Clough, Shankley, Paisley, Lyall, Greenwood etc cope without statistical analysis these days that would make anyone go blind.. :phew:

That's a general observation, more than anything. I think the over emphasis put on it is overused and drifts in to losing sight of the game in front of them itself. I know that'll grate against many who like all that but to others it loses it's appeal when not everything needs to be measured and analysed. Many things in the game still happen off the cuff and done on instinct. Not everything needs to have a reason as to why it's done. And it sucks a lot of the fun out of the game when you try to figure everything out before and after it's done. A lot of the time actions are performed in split moments depending on how someone else reacts in that moment too.

Each to their own, but far too much of it loses it's appeal.
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

my guess is, and of course it's only a guess, that in the "old days" (and as you know, I'm DEFINITELY in that category) you'd have to look at hundreds of players over numerous games to ascertain if he was worthwhile investing money in.

I'm also fairly sure that although a club didn't have necessarily an army of scouts, they had "contacts" who would give them a bell when they saw someone and refer them on.

if you trusted the bloke you took it to the next level.

I believe that this "new way" of doing things eliminates those hundreds of hours and allows those old days to be trimmed down to the "next" phase quicker.

the NBA, MLB and NFL all use some form of these stats, so there must be an awful lot of faith in them.

not saying they're infallible but for so many different sports to use them, at least shows that there is a basis for them being more on point than spending hundreds of man hours coming up with the same or at least similar conclusion ?

n.b. I really enjoy the analysis side but as stated I am clueless a lot of the time, sometimes it leads me to re-look at what I am looking at, but just even taking a look at this breakdown, it confirms what we were seeing on the match thread.

that Bowen and Coufal were having a less than stellar match, that Moyes should have made different subs and that we should have won the game under more favourable "rub of the green" scenario.

I look forward to more breakdowns and looking to see if I really did "see" what I "saw."

sometimes I am so intent on looking at one particular part of the game, that other aspects of it passed me by.
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

The old days were still the modern era for say Ferguson and Bobby Robson during the 90s and 2000s and they could still perform fine as managers in a modern age as 2 examples of being able to rely more on older methods of managing and coaching. And yes I do still believe such managers would thrive in the modern era if it was possible to plonk them in the here and now as younger managers. Their skillset was unique to them and based heavily on man management and discipline, not so much with statistical work.

I do think there is a place for it, but not to the point where it's talked about PPDA. No? Exactly..
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting »

Those names listed would just be even better in all honesty. They're already geniuses in their chosen field and all you're really talking about is them having access to more information about their players and their opponents to help make decisions.
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Up the Junction »

Colours never run wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:10 pm However did the likes of Ferguson, Robson, Clough, Shankley, Paisley, Lyall, Greenwood etc cope without statistical analysis these days that would make anyone go blind.. :phew:
The same way they coped without goal line technology, sports science, lightweight footballs and goalkeepers not being able to pick up the ball from a back pass.

Each and every one of them would rely on statistical analysis were they part of the modern game, as do the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, Ancelotti and Moyes.

The game has moved on.
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Puff Daddy »

.... and often course, do remember there is no Moyes to inspire the players tonight either. He is serving a one match ban carried over from the Eintracht debacle for kicking a ball boy
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

Up the Junction wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:47 pm The same way they coped without goal line technology, sports science, lightweight footballs and goalkeepers not being able to pick up the ball from a back pass.

Each and every one of them would rely on statistical analysis were they part of the modern game, as do the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, Ancelotti and Moyes.

The game has moved on.

I said there is a role for it to play in the game but I question how much of it would be made redundant to them. Robson and Ferguson weren't surrounded and wishing to be inundated by endless statistics to rely on managing their sides in the modern game, although it was in the game before they left it and they coped just as fine as they ever did. No one is denying the game has moved on but I am questioning the overuse and emphasis placed upon it to make such a difference to their more tradional methods of managing a Team on and off the pitch.

And like you rightly say, Moyes uses it but he also stresses it's there to supplement what he's doing, rather than go overboard with it which I think is a healthy approach in the modern game. You bombard players with endless information of this kind of thing, then you begin to run the risk of overloading their understanding of the game and lose that spontaneity that can be so important to a players game. Focused analytical information at the right time can be very beneficial but too much of it then you begin to lose the room.
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Up the Junction »

Colours never run wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:04 pm I said there is a role for it to play in the game but I question how much of it would be made redundant to them.
The answer is "none of it". Because no-one would forsake something that could offer you an advantage over the opposition.
Colours never run wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:04 pm No one is denying the game has moved on but I am questioning the overuse and emphasis placed upon it.
The managers and coaching teams that utilise tech/analytics are in a better position that any of us to know what is sufficient and acceptable use. If they use it, then I'd wager it's not being overused.
Colours never run wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:04 pm Focused analytical information at the right time can be very beneficial but too much of it then you begin to lose the room.
Give me an example when this has happened and I'll hear you out.
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

Up the Junction wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:12 pm The answer is "none of it". Because no-one would forsake something that could offer you an advantage over the opposition.


The managers and coaching teams that utilise tech/analytics are in a better position that any of us to know what is sufficient and acceptable use. If they use it, then I'd wager it's not being overused.


Give me an example when this has happened and I'll hear you out.
That's not coming from me, that comes from Coaches and Managers in the game who say that.

And I don't believe that every bit of analysis is used by some managers to be beneficial. Some will but others will cherry pick what they deem more useful to them. And they'd be right too, as not every analytical information would be beneficial to a Team, if it doesn't serve much of a specific purpose.
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

if it wasn't the way forward, how are the people like Opta making it and making al shed load of money out of it ?

I took a course on analytics once, it was a long course (computer course online) and you had to answer questions based on info you had. there was online help from people who had already taken the course.

in the end I had to watch 6 games (luckily I had a plethora of games on video - yep !! :crylol: ) and you had to look at KPI's et al. and come up with certain ways why a team won or lost.

it was really fascinating in that I had to choose what KPI's I found relevant also.

not to the degree that Jack and Callum are at now of course and like I say they've advanced so much (this was maybe 10 plus years ago) that even I am lost in it now. but it is a tool like everything else.

believe it or not, the keynote proponents of that type of analysis back then were Big Sam and the bloke at Southampton at that time Les Reed maybe ?

they were pushing for it as the way forward.

every industry no matter what, from people like Amazon, using analytics to best serve their customers, to your local supermarket deciding where to put products and keep up with what's selling or not. hate to have my local place run out of t.p. because no one was keeping up with sales !!!!!!

:crylol:

oh and by the way, they were sending data to players after the game to show where they were in respective KPI's and where they placed in the league. going into the Boss for a pay raise and saying "hey I'm in the top 5 for my position in KPI's, how about more wedge ?" or the Boss saying, "here's why you've been dropped son."
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Re: ⚽ Nottingham Forest v West Ham United: match thread

Post by Albie Beck »

Up the Junction wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:12 pm The answer is "none of it". Because no-one would forsake something that could offer you an advantage over the opposition.
Somewhat ironically one of the early adopters of the science-based approach was that old dinosaur S Allardyce :shocker:
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