The Strikes Thread

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delbert
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by delbert »

hammers92 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:43 pm What is the solution then?

What happens if we break the goodwill and love teachers have for their jobs by leaving?

What next? How does it get resolved?
Just a meandering observation:

Bung the pay up too much then as well as rewarding those who see teaching as a vocation it will start attracting mercenaries in it just for the money, ditto nurses and people in other meaningful, but thankless jobs.
Would that be such a bad thing though, as long as the job is being done up to a standard does the person doing it have to actually care?
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mumbles87
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by mumbles87 »

delbert wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:22 pm Just a meandering observation:

Bung the pay up too much then as well as rewarding those who see teaching as a vocation it will start attracting mercenaries in it just for the money, ditto nurses and people in other meaningful, but thankless jobs.
Would that be such a bad thing though, as long as the job is being done up to a standard does the person doing it have to actually care?
But we done that with train drivers etc and yet not everyone becomes one...
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by MD_HM »

mumbles87 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:29 pm But we done that with train drivers etc and yet not everyone becomes one...
Isn't a great example, isn't it a closed shop so you can't become one even if you wanted to.

Any demand is due to it being overpaid compared with the rest of society.

It's literally like the text book of example of what continued striking leads to when train drivers are paid more than nurses, teachers, fire fighters and some doctors.

The answer isn't pay everyone more either, it's unsustainable... There should be balance, it's not meant as a knock for train drivers either by the way

Don't bother replying if it mentions PPE contracts or anything to do with the Tories :grin:
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mumbles87
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by mumbles87 »

MD_HM wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:44 pm Isn't a great example, isn't it a closed shop so you can't become one even if you wanted to.

Any demand is due to it being overpaid compared with the rest of society.

It's literally like the text book of example of what continued striking leads to when train drivers are paid more than nurses, teachers, fire fighters and some doctors.

The answer isn't pay everyone more either, it's unsustainable... There should be balance, it's not meant as a knock for train drivers either by the way

Don't bother replying if it mentions PPE contracts or anything to do with the Tories :grin:
No it's not a closed shop, another myth

Direct recruit night tube drivers

Train drivers for Elizabeth line recruited from the street

Network rail recruit often.

https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/h ... ain-driver
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by bubbles1966 »

We could ensure that we only produce obedient Japanese style children rather than a lawless bunch of little gits. :lol:

Truthfully though, I suspect they are no worse than we were forty/fifty years ago, just that they have labels for them all these days.

Teachers have always come and gone so it's not a new phenomenon.

Anyway, demographics will take care of it. The schoolchildren cohort will be reduced by nearly two million (15%) in the next generation. That's >70.000 fewer teachers who will be needed at current class sizes. It is even more profound with some of our nearish neighbours. Italy will have 25% fewer children than now.

The world's a changing.
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by mumbles87 »

so onto money, the firefighters have postponed their strike action to ballot members on the latest pay deal

7% back dated and 5% this year. (my personal opinion thats not a bad offer)

now they (the DFT) got network rail to pull their pay offer (was going to go above the 5% and 4% offer already on table) as if offered to rail staff would have to be offered to nurses, etc

so I wonder if this 7% and 5% will be offered to nurses and teachers now

maybe more money found now its forecast the uk wont go into recession? (saw that on twitter) who knows

but lets hope for an end
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by hammers92 »

The pay deal still needs to be accepted by members so not quite over the finish line just yet.
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by mumbles87 »

hammers92 wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:35 am The pay deal still needs to be accepted by members so not quite over the finish line just yet.
I believe it wasn't just the fact the precious one was rejected it was the fact it would come out of existing budgets so would need cuts to pay for

If this is funded by increase to budget I can see it being accepted
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by bonzosbeard »

hammers92 wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:35 am The pay deal still needs to be accepted by members so not quite over the finish line just yet.
It's a good offer though, for now.

But when inflation is back at 2 or 3 % it needs to be linked to wages, not 1% under for a following decade and back to square one.
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by Prob »

Nurses are not too happy that the fire service has been given a deal so easily. They are happy for the men and women who work in the fire service. But very unhappy with the government.

The junior doctors are due to go on strike now for 3 days. If the government gives them a new pay deal and not the nurses. That will be it for a lot of nurses who will just walk
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by bonzosbeard »

Prob wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:45 pm Nurses are not too happy that the fire service has been given a deal so easily. They are happy for the men and women who work in the fire service. But very unhappy with the government.

The junior doctors are due to go on strike now for 3 days. If the government gives them a new pay deal and not the nurses. That will be it for a lot of nurses who will just walk
My colleague told me that when she picked up kids from school close to the recent teachers strike, some of the parents criticising teachers were actually NHS people who she had heard a few weeks before moaning about their pay and conditions.
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by delbert »

Prob wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:45 pm Nurses are not too happy that the fire service has been given a deal so easily. They are happy for the men and women who work in the fire service. But very unhappy with the government.

The junior doctors are due to go on strike now for 3 days. If the government gives them a new pay deal and not the nurses. That will be it for a lot of nurses who will just walk
Going in demanding 19% will do that, they asked for the most meaning their demands are going to be the hardest to meet, hence being the last to be dealt with. They would be best to concentrate on their own cause.
The excitable left getting all wet over dreams of a general strike and bringing down the Tories is romantic bollox that ain't doing any worker any favours, let alone nurses.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/news/live ... -on-1-feb/

Down that rabbit hole lays ruination, ask the miners.

Most of the strikers have credible causes and public support, banding together to take on the government as one makes the cause more political, that will lose or dilute a measure of public support........
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by mumbles87 »

delbert wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:48 pm Going in demanding 19% will do that, they asked for the most meaning their demands are going to be the hardest to meet, hence being the last to be dealt with. They would be best to concentrate on their own cause.
The excitable left getting all wet over dreams of a general strike and bringing down the Tories is romantic bollox that ain't doing any worker any favours, let alone nurses.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/news/live ... -on-1-feb/

Down that rabbit hole lays ruination, ask the miners.

Most of the strikers have credible causes and public support, banding together to take on the government as one makes the cause more political, that will lose or dilute a measure of public support........
With the greatest respect to minors it was a job that was a. phasing out and b. Easier to train replacements

How easy is it to train a fireman or nurse? Let alone a Dr
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by Prob »

bonzosbeard wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:58 pm My colleague told me that when she picked up kids from school close to the recent teachers strike, some of the parents criticising teachers were actually NHS people who she had heard a few weeks before moaning about their pay and conditions.
Divide and rule, the Tory plan. Get the workers turning against each other standing up for themselves. Pay and conditions for teachers is far worse than in the NHS.
delbert wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:48 pm Going in demanding 19% will do that, they asked for the most meaning their demands are going to be the hardest to meet, hence being the last to be dealt with. They would be best to concentrate on their own cause.
The excitable left getting all wet over dreams of a general strike and bringing down the Tories is romantic bollox that ain't doing any worker any favours, let alone nurses.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/news/live ... -on-1-feb/

Down that rabbit hole lays ruination, ask the miners.

Most of the strikers have credible causes and public support, banding together to take on the government as one makes the cause more political, that will lose or dilute a measure of public support........
19% is only what they have lost over 13 years. I don't care about this idea of a general strike, but each sector that has gone on strike have been for valued reasons, pay is always going to be a big part, but when you are running wards with half the staff you should have it is not safe. Reason why is people leaving due to the poor pay and working conditions. The public are still very supportive off them all.
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Prob wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:09 pm 19% is only what they have lost over 13 years.
Nonesense. How many nurses working 13 years ago are paid 19% less than they were in real terms?
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by YorksHammer »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:01 pm Nonesense. How many nurses working 13 years ago are paid 19% less than they were in real terms?
Asking the wrong question, Sammy - nurses pay is down 8% in real terms over the 12 years 2010 to 2022 (https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ider-trend) then inflation this year is ~10/11% which is (one assumes - cant source this) where the 19% has come from.

Equally, it's a negotiation - you don't go in there with a bid below what you'd ideally see. You start high and compromise during a negotiation with the other side - something the RNC have signalled they would do if Sunak and the English Government would entertain a negotiation. They won't.

These strikes can be stopped by a reasonable negotiation - the Welsh and Scottish Governments have actually sat down and had a discussion with the other side that has led to strikes being called off. The fact Sunak and the Tories won't even do that is the reason they're still happening in England.
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Re: The Strikes Thread

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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by RichieRiv »

Prob wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:09 pm 19% is only what they have lost over 13 years.
That's not how inflation works. Inflation doesn't devalue the currency, it reduces purchasing power and crucially a set basket of goods. Believe it or not, despite high inflation, there are some goods and services that have not been impacted or have only experienced a marginal impact i.e. below the BofE 2% target.

The other factor that is conveniently forgotten is the benefits, mainly pensions where employer contributions are the equivalent of 20%. Additionally, the level of annual leave nurses bet and the generous sick pay. Let's get this straight, I am not suggesting that they should lose these benefits, but they should be taken into account when asking for a pay rise.
Prob wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:09 pm but when you are running wards with half the staff you should have it is not safe.
What wards are we talking about here? ICU? HDU? Orthopaedics? Cancer? Ambulatory? Pediatric? GM? Community?
Prob wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:09 pm Reason why is people leaving due to the poor pay and working conditions.
The lure of big money in the middle-east or the dream of moving to Australia and New Zealand is causing nurses to leave. Or, is the most common reason, the ability to go agency and earn the same for less work.
Prob wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:09 pm The public are still very supportive off them all.
Some nurses aren't supportive of the strikes, so I doubt all the public are.
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

YorksHammer wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:27 am Asking the wrong question, Sammy - nurses pay is down 8% in real terms over the 12 years 2010 to 2022 (https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ider-trend) then inflation this year is ~10/11% which is (one assumes - cant source this) where the 19% has come from.
I'm not asking any question, I'm disputing the central claim in this strike.

It's almost impossible for a nurses pay to have fallen over the last decade in real terms or any other terms.

Take a band 5 new nurse starting in 2015, by 2022 their pay would have increased by 34%, well above inflation. A new starter in 2010 that didn't ever get to band 6 in those 12 years would have had a pay packet 50% higher than the day they started.

Picking average pay is misleading as it' can be skewed by newer starters, so you get unions screaming for more trainee nurses followed by unions screaming that average pay has fallen because they got all the new trainee nurses.

If the argument is pay stagnation as it seems to be then it's reasonable to look at how many nurses pay is actually 19%, 10% or even 1% lower in real terms than it was at the time chosen.

If the argument is starting salaries haven't risen then that's slightly different but as 26000 people accepted the starting salary in the last couple of years they can't have thought it was so measly.

If the argument is nurses are generally underpaid then again that's slightly different but the NHS wage bill is ~60bn (how has this risen above inflation if pay has fallen?) with 1.2m employees, that's funding for about 50,000 each on average.
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Re: The Strikes Thread

Post by mumbles87 »

RichieRiv wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:18 am That's not how inflation works. Inflation doesn't devalue the currency, it reduces purchasing power and crucially a set basket of goods. Believe it or not, despite high inflation, there are some goods and services that have not been impacted or have only experienced a marginal impact i.e. below the BofE 2% target.

The other factor that is conveniently forgotten is the benefits, mainly pensions where employer contributions are the equivalent of 20%. Additionally, the level of annual leave nurses bet and the generous sick pay. Let's get this straight, I am not suggesting that they should lose these benefits, but they should be taken into account when asking for a pay rise.



What wards are we talking about here? ICU? HDU? Orthopaedics? Cancer? Ambulatory? Pediatric? GM? Community?



The lure of big money in the middle-east or the dream of moving to Australia and New Zealand is causing nurses to leave. Or, is the most common reason, the ability to go agency and earn the same for less work.



Some nurses aren't supportive of the strikes, so I doubt all the public are.
If leave / sick pay, etc hasnt improved whilst they have been employed as a nurse etc why would it be brought into pay?

Yes if they said right you can have 5% rise and 1 week extra leave a year then id agree

But if levels are the same as 10 years ago it's nothing to do with % pay rises
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